History 101: Why the 2nd Amendment?

Discussion in 'Gun Control' started by Golem, Mar 23, 2021.

  1. Turtledude

    Turtledude Well-Known Member Donor

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    Nah you made up stuff that ignores the obvious and accentuates the irrelevant. You also completely avoid the entire context in which the second was created and its relationship with the rest of the bill of rights, and Article One Section Eight
     
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  2. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Then show me the proof.
     
  3. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Heller says 2A can be regulated.

    Moreover, the intent of 2A wasn't about scope, 'keep and bear arms' is an expression, not a constraint.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2024
  4. Wild Bill Kelsoe

    Wild Bill Kelsoe Well-Known Member

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    LOL...A volunteer fire department can't have a fire truck until there's a fire.
     
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  5. Wild Bill Kelsoe

    Wild Bill Kelsoe Well-Known Member

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    I already posted it.
     
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  6. Wild Bill Kelsoe

    Wild Bill Kelsoe Well-Known Member

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    The 2nd Amendment doesn't list any "constraints"...lol
     
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  7. Turtledude

    Turtledude Well-Known Member Donor

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    there never was a valid case that was contrary to Heller at the Supreme court level
     
  8. Turtledude

    Turtledude Well-Known Member Donor

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    He thinks the second amendment is about what the citizens can do versus what the government cannot do
     
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  9. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    I didn't insist anything, I said the argument wasn't settled until Heller.
     
  10. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Small nukes are 'bearable' so are bazookas, 50 cal machine guns, machine guns in general.

    'Bearable' isn't absolute, there is room for regulation.
     
  11. Wild Bill Kelsoe

    Wild Bill Kelsoe Well-Known Member

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    The smallest nuclear weapon ever made weighs 300 pounds.

    A bazooka is a crew served weapon.

    A 50 caliber machine gun is a crew served weapon, weighs 84 pounds and can't be be fired by hand.

    Automatic weapons that can be shoulder fire, by a single person, from the shoulder, or by hand are protected by the 2nd Amendment.
     
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  12. Turtledude

    Turtledude Well-Known Member Donor

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    what part of the constitution properly delegated that power to the FEDERAL government.
     
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  13. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Nope
     
  14. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Of course not, nor did I say it. Scope is for courts or legislation
     
  15. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    About the same as a mortar.
    fully automatic weapons are highly regulated, which goes back to my original point.
     
  16. Wild Bill Kelsoe

    Wild Bill Kelsoe Well-Known Member

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    I know automatic weapons are regulated. It's unconstitutional, too.
     
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  17. Wild Bill Kelsoe

    Wild Bill Kelsoe Well-Known Member

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    Shall not be infringed literally means "no constraints"...lol
     
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  18. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    No, SCOTUS says no right is absolute, and so there is regulation.
     
  19. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    No right is absolute, so says the court.

    Sorry, but you are as wrong as wrong can be.
     
  20. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Surely you are kidding? Many volunteer fire departments owned their own fire trucks. To not own them would not make any sense.
     
  21. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Adams mentioned it within the context of a broader statement whose full quote you truncated, but does that equal 'discussed'?

    Hardly. Nor does it equal 'settled argument' (it wasn't a settled argument until Heller, some 233 or so years into the future). What the bulk of the debate at the constitution ratification convention regarding the second amendment was that the antifederalists feared that the new constitution would empower the new congress to subsume state militias into a standing army, which was anathema to the anti-feds and anathema to Virginia, whose signature they needed to ratify the constitution, to which Virginia got the federalists to change the wording of the second amendment from 'country' to 'state'.

    Virginia needed the militias for 1. General policing. 2. State defense, 3, slave patrols. And #3 was the big one, because Virginia was largely a plantation economy.

    I realize it's debatable, but it is a merit worthy argument that, but for slavery, there might not have been the second amendment insofar as the "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State" verbiage.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2024
  22. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Pay particular attention to how I word my argument:

    The issue of the individual right to 'keep and bear arms' was NEVER a 'settled argument' (I mean fully settled) until Heller.

    If that weren't true, the lower courts would have reversed the Wash DC law banning handguns in '75 and the SC wouldn't have granted cert.

    So, let's break it down even further:

    Pre-Heller Interpretation: Prior to the Heller decision, there was indeed significant debate and lack of clarity regarding whether the Second Amendment protected an individual's right to own firearms or if this right was tied exclusively to service in a state militia. Different courts had varied interpretations, and there wasn't a definitive Supreme Court ruling on this specific issue.

    Heller Decision's Impact: In District of Columbia v. Heller, the Supreme Court explicitly interpreted the Second Amendment as protecting an individual's right to possess firearms independent of service in a militia. This was the first time the Court had directly and conclusively addressed this aspect of the Second Amendment at such a high level.

    Lower Courts and Washington D.C. Law: So, my point about the lower courts and the Washington D.C. handgun ban is important. The fact that lower courts upheld the D.C. law, and the Supreme Court's decision to grant certiorari (agree to hear the case), indicates that there was a significant legal question to be resolved. The Supreme Court's decision to take the case underscores the lack of settled law on this issue at the time.

    Post-Heller Landscape: The Heller decision fundamentally changed the legal landscape regarding the Second Amendment. It settled a long-standing debate (which clearly existed for the aforementioned reasons) by affirming an individual right to bear arms, influencing subsequent legal challenges and interpretations related to gun control laws.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2024
  23. Wild Bill Kelsoe

    Wild Bill Kelsoe Well-Known Member

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    There's nothing to argue. The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. The only legal way to change that is to amend the Constitution.

    I doubt slavery had much, if any to do with it. There were other, more direct and immediate threats to be concerned with.
     
  24. Wild Bill Kelsoe

    Wild Bill Kelsoe Well-Known Member

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    It was sarcasm. No surprise that you missed it...lol

    But, by your logic, a disarmed militia is the same as a fire department with no fire truck.
     
  25. Wild Bill Kelsoe

    Wild Bill Kelsoe Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. That's why murder, assault, reckless discharge, brandishing, etc. are illegal.

    Gun ownership is regulated. However, regulations limiting carrying and owning a gun are unconstitutional.

    The 1st Amendment isn't unlimited, but there are no outlawed, or banned words in our criminal code.

    Cars are heavily regulated, but it's legal to buy a car that can do 100 mph+, when the highest speed limit on any public road is the country is only 85 mph.

    The highest speed limit on any public road is 85 mph, but on private property a person is allowed to drive as fast as they want. There are no speed limits on private property.
     

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