Islam is hopeless part II

ok but you are still talking.
but not providing any evidence.

i don't know what you guys go through over there.
but i don't hear good things.

do you live in iran now?

if you wanna share i'll listen.
if not, i hope Allah gives what is best for you...

you should read the qur'an for that.
again. obviously.

yes i am sure.

you clearly have to go through 101s:
let's start with "distinction between people's distorted deeds
and the doctrine/teaching itself".

if you speak about islam

a) without having read the qur'an
b) without any proof
c) with prejudices​

that's ignorance.
i don't know what you call it.
but most of the people attack islam here with borrowed theories
from tv and websites.

but you say you'v read it and you clearly have problems
with the scripture. so? what's problematic?

provide ayahs & elaborate if you wish to discuss.

this and all that has been written from this point
weren't addressed to you, it was for dixon76710.

but obviously you couldn't stop.

fine then;
i don't know what they thought you or what
happened to you but you clearly missed a point:

"there is no compulsion in religion".

come to my country (turkey), visit the churches and synagogues.
they have more privileges than mosques.

again, good old orientalist theories.
bring source and i will address them.

this is a discussion platform.
no one leaves no one alone.
get used to it.

or you may click the "x" icon on "upper right corner"
of your browser.

we try to discuss in a civilized manner.
at least most of the time.
i advise you do the same.

be well.

 

Mehmet,

No body said don't talk here or don't try to prove your point, when I said leave others alone I was talking about the real life.

I'd ask what you meant by "prove" when the text is there and everyone can go read it. But then, the fact that you say this is a discussion platform, but then complain why I'm talking, tells me it's a waste of time to try to have a discussion with you.
For others, there's no need to do anything else, but read the qoran itself. You'll see the truth yourself.

 

how do you know what i do in real life?

sure, i will read the qur'an.
that's a offer i wouldn't turn down.

it's never a waste of time to share thoughts,
unless people have hardcore tendencies for bigotry.

we learn from everyone, don't we?

be well.

 

How you know not?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYMQneyuPSM"]Islam real goal - YouTube[/ame]

 

okay...
and what's my life gotta do with a youtube video?

 

In black and white, couldnt be stated more plainly.

[9.1] (This is a declaration of) immunity by Allah and His Apostle towards those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement.
[9.2] So go about in the land for four months and know that you cannot weaken Allah and that Allah will bring disgrace to the unbelievers.....
[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

That applies to all idolaters, but you seem to think that the one small exception to this rule

"Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreementthen they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term ..."

is the rule itself. And as we can see, even for this one segment of idolaters is excepted, at the end of the term of the agreement, its back to "slay the idolaters". And like I said, most idolaters had no agreement with Muhammad.

 

Response: Once again you help to prove my point. As you have just quoted, the verse states that muslims are not to fight and slay the idolatorsn not fight and slay the idolators first. So from your own evidence, the muslims were not the agressors. It was the non-muslims, proven by verse 9:13 which clearly states that the non-muslims atacked first. Thus you've done nothing but help to demonstrate once again that islam is a peaceful and just religion for fighting in self-defense, while the non-mulsims were the agressors. Thanks for the assistance.

 

Yes we got it. First wait for the 4 months, then second slay the idolaters. Your point? Since those months passed over 1380 years ago, whats your point?

???? No. Not all non muslims had attacked first, muhammad simply makes reference to those who did. The Quraish are the only ones who were responsible for the "expulsion of the Apostle".

[9.13] What! will you not fight a people who broke their oaths and aimed at the expulsion of the Apostle, and they attacked you first; do you fear them? But Allah is most deserving that you should fear Him, if you are believers.

Many of muhammads first followers were from the Quraish tribe and they had to be convinced to fight against their own tribe. For all others it was convert or die. Thats why within 80 years of Muhammads death they were waging jihad in Spain in the west and Afghanistan in the east. Not defensive war but instead wars of conquest. The first the wars of apaostasy against the Idolaters of the arabian penninsula who had surrendered their tongue to allah and their zakat to Muhammad in medina. When he died, they quit paying zakat, so were attacked. Not defensive war but instead war because they had broke their oath to pay tribute to the Islamic rulers.

 

Response: Once again, we see you continue to say convert or die, yet fail to quote those exact words or anything synonymous from the texts, thus proving nothing. Instead, we see from the text that there is no compulsion in religion (2:256), that muslims are prohibited to fight those who incline to peace (8:61), and that it was the non-muslims who attacked first (9:13), and that no verse in the Qur'an or sunnah states for muslims to strike first. Thus we once again see that islam teaches violence in self-defense of violence, and that it was the non-muslims who were the agressors and attacked first. So thanks again for demonstrating that islam is a peaceful and just religion, while it is your ideology that is violent, not islam.

 

EARTH TO FATIHAH : Do you think by now that anybody in Political Forum doesn't know that you are a taqiyya-riddled, Islam propagandist, who is constantly lying, with all these ABSURD claims about Islam being a religion of peace ?

HA HA HA HA HA !!!!!!! You are the biggest joke I've ever seen in a forum.
Everyone knows that Islam is neither a religion or an ideology of "peace". Everyone knows it is an ideology of WAR, which has killed 270 million people (including your ancestors probably) around the world, all in an offensive, imperialism to make the whole world Islamic.

Sorry to disillusion you fella - It's not going to happen. It hasn't happened in the last 1400 years, and it's not going to happen in the next 1400 years (or anytime after that either). In fact, it looks like things are going the other way. I can easily see the extermination of Islam taking place right now, as Islamic leaders (bin Laden, Qaddafi, Zarqawi, Saddam Hussein, et al) are being bumped off left and right. Zawahiri : You're next boy ! The Taliban are hurting having been defeated severely in Afghanistan, and American troops, and other countries are still there kicking their miserable asses.

As for all your Muslim Brotherhood groups, HA HA, well let's take CAIR (the most publicized one). They are a joke. The FBI has disowned them. Their support from American Muslims has dwindled to near ZERO, and they now subsist on charity from Saudi Arabia (how long will that last ?)

Muslims remind me of dogs. You are like a lower form of life. Only difference is the dog was created that way. You don't have to be this uncivilized, barbaric savage that you are. It is a choice. I'd have to say it is about the absolute DUMBEST choice on earth to choose to be a Muslim. In a way, I feel a bit sorry for you. You're stuck in this inferior existence and while everyone else (non-Muslims) can enjoy life as it is meant to be, you can't. I especially feel bad for Muslim women, children, animals, homosexuals, black people, and whoever else you kidnap, enslave, kill, torture, mutilate, and whatever else you all do in your gastly, sub-human behavior.

Maybe somebody is threatening you to do what you do. If so, just get a gun and carry it with you. If they attack you SHOOT THEM. And all you Muslim women out there. Get a gun and keep in on you at all times. If your nutcase Muslim husband thinks he can put his paws all over you whenever he wants to and he ignores your denials of him, SHOOT HIM.

 

Response: In other words, you make a lengthy three paragraph post, thinking that it will somehow distract the forum from the fact that your deluded attempts to make islam appear as a religion of violence is actually a reflection of your own violent ideology. But we are already aware of your perverted ideology. So there was really no need for the post.

 

In black and white, couldnt be stated more plainly. For the idolaters its convert or die.

[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

 

Sad. How very sad. (is the plight of the Muslim trapped in his horrible ideology of war, hate, and other disgusting things). I do sympathize with you, but you should try harder to escape from it. # 1 ) Get a gun. If the Muslimes come at you, SHOOT to kill.

 

Response: And as anyone can see, the words "convert or die" or "muslims attack first" are not stated above, nor is there anything synonymous to it. Thus the verse does not refer to compulsion by muslims, but self-defense, as proven by verse 9:13 which states that the non-muslims attacked first. Thanks again for demonstrating that islam is a peaceful and just religion and that it is your ideology that is violent, not islam.

 

Response: Unfortunately for you, no one is still convinced to follow your violent ideology. Fortunately, we have the religion of islam to free ourselves from the violence of your ideology.

 

Khilafah is one of the most important issues in Islam, many versus in Quran and many Hadiths of the Prophet ordered Muslims to establish such a system. Ruling by Islam is the most frequent issue discussed in Quran after the belief and creed. Therefore, Khilafah was discussed by many Muslim scholars, the following are the definition of some of them to Khilafah.

1: Ibn Khaldoon defined it as: A representation, of the one who has the right to adopt the divine rules, aimed at protecting the Deen and ruling the world (Dunia) with it.

2: Al-Mawirdi defined it as: Succession of the Prophethood aimed at protecting the Deen and ruling the world (Dunia).

3: Taqiudine al-Nabhani, (founder of Hizb at-Tahreer) defined it as: A total leadership for all the Muslims aimed at implementing the Shariah of Islam and carrying the Message of Islam to the world.

...Khilafah is the political system in Islam. It is responsible for implementing the Islamic system (be it social, economic, educational, foreign policy,...) and maintaining its implementation. It is also responsible for spreading the message of Islam to the world. Khilafah is the Islamic state which the Prophet (pbuh) sought to create and worked for in Mecca, for a period of thirteen years, until he (pbuh) established it Medina.
http://alkhilafah.net/s1.html


[5.44] ...whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers.
[5.45] ...whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unjust.
[5.47] ...whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.

 

Sure there is. "if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate" is the "convert" part and "slay the idolaters wherever you find them" would be the "die" part. Where are you getting lost?

 

Response: The fact that the word "convert" does not mean "if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate" in any dictionary proves otherwise. So which part are you getting lost?

 

It does in Islam. Daily prayer and zakat were two of the 5 pillars of Islam that would be expected immediately from an idolater upon conversion to Islam. Was the first things they stopped doing when muhammad died, bringing upon them the wars of apostasy. Not because they had attacked anybody, but instead because they stopped paying zakat to the muslim rulers.

 

Response: Yet we once again see you fail to quote anything from the qur'an or sunnah that states the word convert means "if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate", thus once again proving nothing. Yet we do see from the text that in verse 9:13 of the qur'an, it was the non-muslims who attacked first, proving that the verses of violence by muslims refer to self-defense, once again proving that islam is a peaceful and just religion.

 

Wrong again, history is on the side of the sane people and again he have debunk yourself by posting false claims.

They didn't rule, they conquered Spain, Spain will regain their full independence in the 16th century by defeating the last of the Muslim armies that have been oppressing them and threatening their freedom for the last 800 years. And by the way, It will be a lady that will defeat the Muslims her name is Queen Isabel of Spain.

Wrong again, they conquered parts of India not the entire India and during those years thousands of Hindus will be massacred by Muslim armies.

Only 10,000 Coptic Christians left! so many died and massacred by Muslims and up to this day the oppression against Coptics and other Christians continues.

There was hardly any Jewish tribes left in Arabia in 640 AD wiped out by Mohammed's Muslim armies.

I think you better read more Asian history.

Islamic sources are mostly not credible, Just like they have edited many of Jesus Christ teachings, they have also edited many of their history to make themselves look good.

Yes, the crusades was started to counter the aggression of Islamic armies. And thanks to the crusades, Muslim conquest was stopped.

Yes this proof that we Christians keep good records of history good or bad while Muslims tends to doctored their history.

Most of the slave traders were Muslims.

Yes, the list goes on at the same time the West introduce many scientific discoveries including cure for small pox, polio, tuberculosis, malaria, telegraph, industrial revolution, modern medicines, got rid of slavery, thousands of Christian missionaries working hard in Africa to bring medicine, shelters and clothing. Christian scholars have kept very good records, etc. etc. that all resulted in saving millions of lives and uplifted the standard of living.

Again as usual, you debunked yourself.

 

There is no such thing as self defense in Islam only offense.

 

Response: There's the statement. Where's the proof? We see none. Not a single source was provided. Yet the following link from non-muslim sources proves otherwise. http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/spain_1.shtml Debunked as usual.

Response: Another statement. Where's the proof? Again, we see no source backing your claim. Furthermore, your confirmation that there are 10,000 coptic christians confirms that the muslims did not make them convert or die. Otherwise, there would be zero coptic christians, not 10,000. Debunked as usual.

Response: No surprise. Another statement. Where's the proof? Again, we see none. Not only that, but you confirm that it was christians who started the crusades, while providing no source that a muslim army ever went to SouthAsia. Thus your own words support that non-muslims are violent agressors, including christians, not muslims. Debunked yet again.

Response: Again, we see no source as proof. Thus you've done nothing but confirm the fact that islam was not spread by the sword, but rather spread in defense, after defeating the imperialistic conquests of non-muslims, proven by your own non-muslim sources and your failure to provide a single source to support your claim.Thanks for the clarification.

 

Response: Yet the fact that you once again fail to quote from the qur'an or sunnah any such claim proves otherwise, while we see clearly from the Qur'an that non-muslims attacked first (9:13), thus debunking your claim and showing that it was the non-muslims who were the agressors. Debunked as usual.

 

Don't bother mate.

Humanity is addicted to religion, and Muslim are the worst of the lot. Don't bother convincing them that they are wrong. I tried to do that on Arab forums. I gave them hundreds of examples of quranic verses and prophet sayings which were theoretically, logically and/or scientifically wrong. All they say is that there is no way they could be wrong, simply because it came from Allah and his prophet, and they can never make mistakes.

Fact is, it's easy to believe that there is a better life after death. It is a relaxing feeling. The only way to end religion in the world is if humans became immortal, which I believe will happen one day through pure science.

For now, all we can do is try to prevent religious nut cases from holding office anywhere is the world, to prevent religion from destroying Earth.