MOD EDIT - Rule 5/Reply to deleted Now you change it to "seem to think". So you have a distorted perception... big deal.
The doctrine of Depravity of Man is believed by many Christians and is Biblically supported. It seems when you began this thread you were attempting to get the perspective of Christians and their opinions according to Christianity. Now it seems you are more focused on the justification of man rather than the holiness of God. You say brainwashed, but I say truth seeking. Christ did more than suffer a day or less of death. For the first time ever, He suffered a spiritual separation from the Father. Christ who knew no sin became sin. In the Garden, He referred to the cup being taken away, but not as He willed, but as the Father willed. Throughout the O.T., the wrath of God is referred to as the cup. Our sin was imputed onto Christ and the Father's wrath toward sin was poured down onto the head of Christ. Christ bore our sins. To ignore or deny what was truly at stake takes away from the appreciation for what He went through. He suffered separation so we could have access. He suffered wrath so we could be saved from Hell and spend an eternity with God instead. Isaiah 53:10 10 Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief;[a] when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. Matthew 26:39 39 And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.” 2 Corinthians 5:21 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. Jesus refers to the Lake of Fire being where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Luke 13:28 28 In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out. Matthew 22:11-14 11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.” The phrase “gnashing of teeth” is found in several places in the Bible and is used exclusively in reference to the final judgment of sinners, either directly or in a parable. “Gnashing of teeth” is always combined with either “weeping” or “wailing.” The Greek phrase for “gnashing of teeth,” literally means “grinding one’s teeth together.” When combined with “weeping,” it can be compared to hitting one’s thumb with a hammer, squeezing the eyes closed and grinding the teeth together hard in reaction to the pain. Weeping and gnashing of teeth in Scripture, however, is much more dreadful, partly because it lasts for eternity. Jesus’ first reference to weeping and gnashing of teeth comes in Matthew 8:12 where He compares the kingdom of heaven where “many” come from all parts of the world to “recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.” The sons of the (other) kingdom, however, are thrown into “outer darkness” where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, a description of a truly horrible and painful fate. In His parable of the weeds sown in the field, Jesus again describes the fate of those who reject Him, this time adding to the description “the fiery furnace” into which they will be cast (Matthew 13:41-42). The story of the guest who comes to the wedding feast of the Lamb without the proper clothing (salvation) is cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 22:11-13), as is the wicked servant described in Matthew 24:44-51 and the worthless servant in the parable of the talents (Matthew 25:14-30). All these references to weeping and gnashing of teeth have one thing in common—the undeniable fact that those who do not belong to Christ will suffer this terrible fate, while His children will enjoy bliss in heaven with Him forever. In heaven, “He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away" (Revelation 21:4). The pain that causes the gnashing of teeth will be unknown in heaven, and there will be no weeping, no wailing, and no tears. The sorrow and death that cause us to weep and mourn will be a thing of the past. Sickness, death, persecution, and sin will be no more. In the Parable of the Wedding Feast, Jesus tells of a “wedding crasher” of sorts: a man in the wedding hall was discovered to have entered the feast without authorization. Jesus says that the king, the master of the feast, issued a dire command concerning the interloper: “Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness”. Jesus uses the term “outer darkness” in the parable to describe a condition of great sorrow, loss and woe. It stands in vivid contrast to the brightly lit and joyous celebration attended by those who accepted the king’s invitation. Interpreting the wedding feast as heaven, the “outer darkness” must be the place of eternal punishment. Most Bible scholars agree that the phrase “outer darkness” refers to hell or, more properly, the lake of fire (Matthew 8:12; 13:42; 13:50; and 25:23). The outer darkness of Jesus’ parable is called “blackest darkness” in Jude 1:13. Again, a place of judgment is the obvious meaning, since it is reserved for “godless men” (verse 4). Perhaps the place of judgment is pictured as “dark” because of the absence of God’s cheering presence. “When you hide your face, they are terrified” (Psalm 104:29). God is called “light” in 1 John 1:5, and if He withdraws His blessing, only darkness is left. Throughout the Scriptures light symbolizes God’s purity, holiness, and glory. Darkness is used as a symbol of moral depravity (Psalm 82:5; Proverbs 2:13; Romans 3:12). Darkness can also refer to trouble and affliction (Job 5:12; Proverbs 20:20; Isaiah 9:2) and to death and nothingness (1 Samuel 2:9; Ecclesiastes 11:8; Job 3:4-6). The outer darkness of judgment is accompanied by “weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The “weeping” describes an inner pain of the heart, mind, and soul. The word in the original denotes a bewailing or lamentation by beating the breast in an expression of immense sorrow. The “gnashing of teeth” describes an outward pain of the body. Taken together, the weeping and gnashing of teeth says hell is a place of indescribable spiritual agony and unending physical pain (see Luke 16:23-2. The outer darkness is a place of anguish, heartache, grief, and unspeakable suffering. Such will be the lot of all who reject Christ (John 3:18, 36). Christ is the Light of the World (John 8:12). When one rejects the Light, he will be cast into eternal darkness. Just like the man in the parable, the one who rejects Christ will lose his chance for joy, blessing and fellowship and will be left with nothing but darkness and eternal regret. Also, in Revelation, John wrote of the dead standing to be judged. The dead are standing. It would have to be the physically dead who are also spiritually dead and doomed for Hell continue in some capacity since they will stand to be judged. Now, if they can stand to be judged, could they also not continue to feel pain? Revelation 20:11-15 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Again, all I see is devotion to the absurd. I'm quite sure that all at the second ressurection will be aware of their impending destruction and will be wailing and nashing teeth. So, basically you believe the wicked have eternal life, burn in anguish for trillions of years and Christians live happily ever after believing their lost deserve what they are getting as supposed punishment that supposedly one crusifiction paid for. The bible clearly states that the wages of din is death, the soul that sins dies, the unsaved are destroyed, consumed, devoured, no more at a second death. And, you have not addressed the thread. I stated clearly that I could careless about both sides slugging it out as to who's right. I want to know what your God given discernment tells you about Eternal torment as a punishment implemented by any being. Do you reason it as fair? Would you stand by God and torch your own children at his beckoning? Do you really think Jesuses crusifiction covers trillions of years of painfully torment? I'm challenging you to think outside of your programmed fear of God. Does ET really reflect a loving God? Does it reflect a just God? Make sure you are not blaspheming God believing and promoting this false doctrine.
This question is so juvenile. I, you and a bunch of my friends could be in a room. I and my friends could claim that if you walk out the door you will be crushed by Godzilla. Going by your own ridiculous assertion, you claiming us to be liars is irresponsible based on you do not have credentials to challenge our claim.
Irrelevant. Btw, it appears you dismiss those who merely dissagree with your belief. On the other foot, why do you not chastise those who claim there is an eternal torture awaiting them? I have biblical scriptures and many other people saying what I'm saying. Why am I irresponsible when those who claim an absurd torture is imminent?
OK, so it's impossible to make anything sufficiently simple that you can understand it. Thank you for that valuable information.
Isaiah 66:22-24 For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the LORD, so shall your offspring and your name remain. From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD. And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh. Daniel 12:1-2 At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Matthew 18:6-9 Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe to the world for temptations to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the one by whom the temptation comes! And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire. Matthew 25:31-46 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. . . . Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. . . . And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. Mark 9:42-48 Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea. And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched. 2 Thessalonians 1:5-10 This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also sufferingsince indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. Jude 7 Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. Jude 13 [These people are] wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever. Revelation 14:9-11 If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of Gods wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name. Revelation 20:10, 14-15 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. . . . Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyones name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
The Bible teaches that God Himself has provided the only means through which His wrath can be appeased and sinful man can be reconciled to Him. In the New Testament, the act of propitiation always refers to the work of God and not the sacrifices or gifts offered by man. The reason for this is that man is totally incapable of satisfying Gods justice except by spending eternity in hell. There is no service, sacrifice or gift that man can offer that will appease the holy wrath of God or satisfy His perfect justice. The only satisfaction, or propitiation, that could be acceptable to God and that could reconcile man to Him, had to be made by God. For this reason God the Son, Jesus Christ, came into the world in human flesh to be the perfect sacrifice for sin and make atonement or propitiation for the sins of the people (Hebrews 2:17). The word propitiation is used in several key verses to explain what Jesus accomplished through His death on the cross. For example, in Romans 3:24-25 we see that believers in Christ have been justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed." These verses are a key point in Pauls argument in the Book of Romans and are really at the heart of the Gospel message. In the first three chapters of Romans, Paul has made the argument that everybody, both Jew and Gentile alike, is under the condemnation of God and deserving of His wrath (Romans 1:1. Everyone has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). All of us deserve His wrath and punishment. God in His infinite grace and mercy has provided a way that His wrath can be appeased and we can be reconciled to Him. That way is through the sacrificial death of His Son, Jesus Christ, as the atonement or payment for sins. It is through faith in Jesus Christ as Gods perfect sacrifice, foretold in the Old Testament and fulfilled in the New Testament, that we can be reconciled to God. It is only because of Christs perfect life, His death on the cross, and His resurrection on the third day that a lost sinner deserving of hell can be reconciled to a Holy God. The wonderful truth of the Gospel message is that Christians are saved from Gods wrath and reconciled to God not because we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins (1 John 4:10). Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me (John 14:6). The only way for Gods wrath against sinful man to be appeased and for us to be reconciled to God is through Jesus Christ. There is no other way. This truth is also communicated in 1 John 2:2; And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. An important part of Christs saving work includes deliverance from Gods wrath that the unbelieving sinner is under, because Jesus atonement on the cross is the only thing that can turn away Gods divine wrath. Those that reject Christ as their Savior and refuse to believe in Him have no hope of salvation. They can only look forward to facing the wrath of God that they have stored up for the coming day of judgment (Romans 2:5). There is no other propitiation or sacrifice that can be made for their sins.
As fallen, sinful human beings, the nature of God is a difficult concept for us to grasp. We tend to see God as a kind, merciful Being whose love for us overrides and overshadows all His other attributes. Of course God is loving, kind, and merciful, but He is first and foremost a holy and righteous God. So holy is He that He cannot tolerate sin. He is a God whose anger burns against the wicked and disobedient (Isaiah 5:25; Hosea 8:5; Zechariah 10:3). He is not only a loving God—He is love itself! But the Bible also tells us that He hates all manner of sin (Proverbs 6:16-19). And while He is merciful, there are limits to His mercy. “Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near. Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon” (Isaiah 55:6-7). Humanity is corrupted by sin, and that sin is always directly against God. When David sinned by committing adultery with Bathsheba and having Uriah murdered, he responded with an interesting prayer: “Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight…” (Psalm 51:4). Since David had sinned against Bathsheba and Uriah, how could he claim to have only sinned against God? David understood that all sin is ultimately against God. God is an eternal and infinite Being (Psalm 90:2). As a result, all sin requires an eternal punishment. God’s holy, perfect, and infinite character has been offended by our sin. Although to our finite minds our sin is limited in time, to God—who is outside of time—the sin He hates goes on and on. Our sin is eternally before Him and must be eternally punished in order to satisfy His holy justice. No one understands this better than someone in hell. A perfect example is the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Both died, and the rich man went to hell while Lazarus went to paradise (Luke 16). Of course, the rich man was aware that his sins were only committed during his lifetime. But, interestingly, he never says, “How did I end up here?” That question is never asked in hell. He does not say, “Did I really deserve this? Don't you think this is a little extreme? A little over the top?” He only asks that someone go to his brothers who are still alive and warn them against his fate. Like the rich man, every sinner in hell has a full realization that he deserves to be there. Each sinner has a fully informed, acutely aware, and sensitive conscience which, in hell, becomes his own tormenter. This is the experience of torture in hell—a person fully aware of his or her sin with a relentlessly accusing conscience, without relief for even one moment. The guilt of sin will produce shame and everlasting self-hatred. The rich man knew that eternal punishment for a lifetime of sins is justified and deserved. That is why he never protested or questioned being in hell. The realities of eternal damnation, eternal hell, and eternal punishment are frightening and disturbing. But it is good that we might, indeed, be terrified. While this may sound grim, there is good news. God loves us (John 3:16) and wants us to be saved from hell (2 Peter 3:9). But because God is also just and righteous, He cannot allow our sin to go unpunished. Someone has to pay for it. In His great mercy and love, God provided His own payment for our sin. He sent His Son Jesus Christ to pay the penalty for our sins by dying on the cross for us. Jesus’ death was an infinite death because He is the infinite God/man, paying our infinite sin debt, so that we would not have to pay it in hell for eternity (2 Corinthians 5:21). If we confess our sin and place our faith in Christ, asking for God’s forgiveness based on Christ’s sacrifice, we are saved, forgiven, cleansed, and promised an eternal home in heaven. God loved us so much that He provided the means for our salvation, but if we reject His gift of eternal life, we will face the eternal consequences of that decision. The Bible clearly and explicitly teaches that hell is a real place to which the wicked/unbelieving are sent after death. We have all sinned against God (Romans 3:23). The just punishment for that sin is death (Romans 6:23). Since all of our sin is ultimately against God (Psalm 51:4), and since God is an infinite and eternal Being, the punishment for sin, death, must also be infinite and eternal. Hell is this infinite and eternal death which we have earned because of our sin. The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10). The punishment of the wicked in hell is as never ending as the bliss of the righteous in heaven. Jesus Himself indicates that punishment in hell is just as everlasting as life in heaven (Matthew 25:46). The wicked are forever subject to the fury and the wrath of God. Those in hell will acknowledge the perfect justice of God (Psalm 76:10). Those who are in hell will know that their punishment is just and that they alone are to blame (Deuteronomy 32:3-5). Yes, hell is real. Yes, hell is a place of torment and punishment that lasts forever and ever, with no end. Praise God that, through Jesus, we can escape this eternal fate (John 3:16, 18, 36).
I'm not questioning the requirement to enter heaven. And, you are welcome to believe your false doctrine of eternal torment. Again, this thread is about what "YOU"(not your religious view)reason as justification for ET. Would you personally torture your own children for eternity if God commanded you to do so? Do you personally believe anyone deserves this punishment? Don't bother with further attempts to prove this false doctrine, just answer the questions I've asked.
Are you Jehovah's Witness? Most devout Christians whether Catholic, Baptist, etc believe in eternal hell as far as I know. The main difference is that some believe it's a literal lake of fire, while others just believe that it's eternal separation from god.
Then there is the possibility that some others might even believe it to be a 'state of mind' in which there is a total opposition to the 'one mind or Mind of God'.
I subscribe to no denomination. I agree with the SDA on the rapture and no eternal hell. I also do not agree with the tithe doctrine as presented by mainstream churches. IMO, the lake of fire is the way God cleanses the universe when he creates the new heaven and earth. The destruction of the old heaven and earth represent the end of the age. IMO, even satan is destroyed though he will take longer to complete destruction.
First they will likely go to the other side of the gulf (Luke 16:26), and spend quite a long time there, but eventually there will be a judgment and (assuming they have not changed their ways) will be cast into the Lake of burning fire, to be consumed. They do not perpetually suffer there, they are permanently gone forever. This is why Catholics are not too far off with their concept of Purgatory.
