Oliver Stone’s film on Ukraine’s Maidan coup to be aired in Russia

The land belong to those who inhibit it. Thats the principal that democracy is based on. People have the power to elect the government and they have the power to power to separate themselves from that government when it id taken over by the use of force in a bloody foreign backed coup-which by the way is illegal under international law. In fact Texas, if it so chooses to could vote to seperate from the union and join-lets say Mexico. In Crimea, millions of people voted to be a part of Russia. Respect their freedom of choice.

 

In Crimea, the majority voted to join Russia. 95.7% in fact. point? You seem to not understand that after the foreign backed neonatzi coup, MULTIPLE cities refused to join the new regime. So Kiev launched attacks on them. Thats why so many voted to join Russia-and why Russia put their troops in defensive formations around Crimea. But You can believe to the #FakeNews known as MSM all you want-That somehow Russia invaded Crimea, pointing to their troops there, while ignoring the fact that Troops were already there under existing treaties.

I debated someone here before who ignorantly pointed out the fact that Russia isn't allowed to seize territory under this treaty and must in fact cooperate which the government. While that may be true, he forgot the fact that Russia made that agreement with the legitamate government of Ukraine-Who's leader fled to Russia out of fear of getting killed by neonatzi militants who were backed by a foreign entity. Under the treaty Russia has the obligation to defend its ally in an event of invasion, military occupation, and of course something like a foreign backed coup.

Imagine the commotion that we and Europe would stir up if Russia orchestrated a successful coup in a country where we and them have significant military presence in the form of strategic and vital military instalations? A would say that there'd be war.

It seems that you are all for having freedom of choice to dictate our government and our country, but when it comes to other countries, they aren't allowed the same choice for themselves. Thats why you support something like foreign backed coups and regime changes. You support imperial dictatorship. Neocolonialism. So don't talk about freedom as if you actually believe in its values

Im so glad that Trump got elected. I think that he will keep his word and end the era of nation building. And hopefully, maybe sometime soon, neoliberalism and neoconservatism will die out

 

They should get the nod from the real owner of Crimea the Ukrainians,
otherwise they are just considered both in Ukraine and International community as squatters.

 

I would understand if the goal is as secession but giving that land to Russia is wrong!!!,
for that land belongs to Ukraine legally and the people their do have the right for self governance but they don't have the right to give that Ukraine soil into another country. Then why is it that Crimea did not seek international help and why is it that Russia single handedly settled the matter, settling it by land grabbing/annexing Crimea, that is illegal!!!.

 

Still it was more legal than in Kosovo, where no referendum took place at all. The US decided everything for them.

 

That was settled through international body as you may recall.

 

I dont recognize any international body other than UN.

 

Exactly,
you are in the right track.

 

Wong. The land belongs to the people who live there and who vote. And what is legal or not is defined by people and changes with time. It was written and it can be unwritten. Few hundred years ago it was legal to burn witches and gays at the stake. Now its not. Government violating the constitution in US may be illegal. But if the people held a referendum then they can easily scrap the entire constitution. Whats legal or not is not set in stone and is decided by the people.

The people of Crimea have the right to do anything they wish to do with the land that they live on. Just like Texans if they so chose to could break away from US and join Mexico. If such a thing were to happen then would you then disrespect the Texan's right of freedom and baselessly trash Mexico for "stealing" or "grabbing" the land? - As if the people of Texas didn't democratically made that choice themsevlves? Thats what you are doing

They did. They asked Russia for help. What? Does you definition of "international" only included EU and US? You expect them to ask EU or US who orchestrated and funded the coup to help? Even after they gave millions to Kiev? They weren't counting on the help from them as they caused it. Thats why the legitimate leader of Ukraine fled to Russia out of fear of being killed by violent neonatzi militants. Other smaller counties have no power to appose US and EU. China has no interest there. Russia has a vital Naval base there. So what international help would they seek if not Russian?

They didn't "grab" anything. Nor did they "single handedly" do anything. The people of Crimea held a referendum if you have forgotten. That fact contradicts your "single handed" statement. They did it with the blessing of Crimean people who's freedom of choice you obviously don't respect. Crimea was entrusted to Russia by the Crimean people who feared an attack by militants in Kiev who ILLEGALLY took power through the use of force. And a referendum is never illegal. At the very least its much more legal than a bloody military coup headed by neonatzis thats for sure. So you have no argument here when it concerns legality as the violent foreign backed coup itself was illegal - yet you do not criticize it.

Any referendum and outcome of that referendum is legal. Seizing power by force by toppling the existing democratically elected government is not. Especially when its back by and funded by foreign entities. You have no moral base to make your argument. And speaking of legality, foreign backed regime changes are illegal under international law. Yet look at our regime change policies that we have employed in Libya and Syria?

You care nothing for legality, morality, or freedom of choice.

 

Who DICTATED the outcome with no regard to the freedom of choice of the people who lived there. They IMPOSED their solution on the people who didn't want it. Thats tyranny at its finest.

 

Nope,
Ukrainian lands is for Ukrainian people,
it's not for Russians.
Enough said.

 

It was not a fair and open vote in Crimea, it was held under armed intimidation. But more importantly I'm not sure it's really appropriate for small areas of land to cede from a parent state just because it might hold a majority. Self rule at a local level sure, but shifting international boundaries is another thing entirely.

Russia abused the privilege the Ukraine gave it in providing a lease for the facility. Russia was worried about not getting the lease renewed, and so they took advantage of popular unrest in Kiev to stage an insurgency as cover for securing the Crimean Peninsula. It's so 20th century ladies, but enjoy your daddy issue... as children need a parental role model after all, and I guess man love is ok in Russia so long as its for Putin.

 

Does California have the right to leave the U.S. because they don't want Trump as president?

And just like polling in the U.S. the polling in Ukraine fluctuates based on recent events.

3 No
4 Crimea is part of Ukraine. It may not secede without permission from the Ukrainian government.
5 Russia is initial aggressor *however* the shelling of rebellious people in Crimea by Ukrainian forces has clouded the situation of who is worst aggressor.


If Quebec tried to leave Canada and the U.S. sent arms and military special forces to Quebec would not the U.S. be the aggressor?

My mom was born in Izmail, Ukraine. I've been there five times for a total of two years. If Izmail shared a border with Russia it would be Izmail in the war because many of the people have Russian blood. The situation is complicated because many Ukrainians have mixed Ukrainian/Russian blood and many sympathize with both Russia and the West.

Most Ukrainians do not hold black and white views of Russian invasion. They (we) do not want to see Ukraine torn apart by war, by invasion, by secession but we also do not like when our democratically lead government is overthrown.

The situation is complicated and tears at the souls of Ukrainians.

 

They do not. The land they live on belongs to all of Ukraine.

They could not. At one time many states in the south tried to break away and the U.S. government went to war to prevent them.


If the people who live in Omsk, Russia (in Siberia) voted to join America do you think they should be allowed to? Do you think Russia would permit this?
Crimea belongs to all the people of Ukraine, not just those who live there.

 

My parents own a home in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, U.S.A. It is the home I was raised in. My mom misses her home country of Izmail, Ukraine. So when I return home my parents, my sister and I are going to hold a vote to secede from the U.S. and become part of Ukraine.
As some in this forum have said it is our right. Then my mom will be in her home country again and will be highly. I did not realize that all we had to do to leave the U.S. is to hold a vote.

- - - Updated - - -

p.s.
Don't tell Trump

 

It's not that easy. You forgot the coup in Kiev that was arranged by nazies and supported by the west at the same time. You did not mention imminent danger of civil war as Crimeans would not recognized the new illegal goverment. Have you heard about 50 pro-russian people burnt in Odessa? Have you heard about trains full of nazi thug directed to Crimea from western Ukraine? My parents live in Crimea. I can't be impartial, but I totally support what happened. Thousands of lives were saved and that worthed it. Millions of Crimeans share this approach.

 

I forget nothing. I hear and read about all of there tragic happenings from some in my family which still live in Izmail.
The situation was horrific. The political situation is complicated and messy and outside governments each with their own agenda make matters worse.
Still, Russia can not be allowed to take pieces of other countries in attempt to rebuild the Soviet Union. I have many Russian friends. I did not support the coup of the legitimate (but corrupt) Ukrainian government however the answer to this is not Crimea leaving. Putin is trying to take advantage of the situation.

 

If you had relatives in Crimea you would think differently.

 

I would not. I am aware of my own mind.

I do understand the people in Crimea will think differently because of their terrible experience.

 

Typical of a brainwashed fool. Your only rebuttal is your false notion on who the land belongs to.

Like I said. The land belong not to the government but the people who appointed the government. This is a fact when concerning democracy. This is why you cant provide a single rebuttal for my example dealing with Texas. Texas has the right to break away from US and join Mexico if it so chooses. Similarly, Crimea has the right to break away from Ukraine and join Russia if it so chooses

But I understand. From talking with you I can tell that you're one of those narrow minded libertards who doesn't believe in real democracy. Just fascism.

 

I do not live in Crimea for 30 years or more. But having close relatives exposed to danger is even worse.

 

I know for a fact that it doesn't belong to foreign backed neonatzis who disregarded democracy and stole the land as well as the government through the use of force. If its between that and a referendum-even the uneducated would be able to tell which is more democratic

 

The president of Ukraine is personally involved in large-scale corruption, alleges a fugitive MP who claims to have rigged votes in the parliament by bribing fellow lawmakers with bags-full of cash on behalf of Petro Poroshenko.


The money used to buy votes had been embezzled from the state coffers and even includes funds provided to Ukraine by the International Money Fund, Aleksandr Onishchenko said in a Skype interview to Russian TV.

“The credits received from the IMF [were stolen]. There were so many contracts to pay inflated prices in budget money. It is simply being washed out of the budget and used by Poroshenko,”

https://www.rt.com/news/369239-poroshenko-vote-rigging-allegations/

 

Yes, I agree. I wish for the safety of your relatives.

 

I understand.

I (and my family in Izmail) did not support the overthrow of the democratically elected government years ago. Yes, that government was corrupt HOWEVER the solution was not to overthrow but to elect another government- as we do in America.

The situation is complicated and the interference of non Ukrainian powers is not helping. I am not smart enough to know the proper solution.