US military jet crashes in Taliban territory in Afghanistan

I wish we had a better and more clear goal in Afghanistan at this point, I am not even sure what it is besides propping up the Government we set up there. WTF good is that for America if they are inept at governance and security for this long. If it is found the plane was downed like the Taliban claim i am not even sure what the response should be even; more tit for tat with the Taliban for the next few decades?!?

 

Osama bin Laden

is still DEAD


Time to realize that and get out of Afghanistan.

 

Get out of the place and tell the Tali if they host any groups who plan terrorist attacks against the west, a good old fashioned carpet bombing will ensue

 

True, true, true.
But of course, it's never that simple.
We got out of Vietnam too, remember? We had a "peace treaty" with North Vietnam
and the deal is we leave and the North Vietnamese leave.
As it was, as soon as we left there was the:
1 - Invasion of Cambodia
2 - Invasion of Laos
3 - Invasion of South Vietnam
4 - Second invasion of Cambodia
5 - First China war
6 - Second China war.

President Nixon couldn't understand why the demonstrators, who were at the White
House all the time, were nowhere to be seen - though more people died after America
left than during the American war there. Simple reason was that the "peace movement"
didn't care about the Indochinese - they just hated Nixon, and the establishment, and
capitalism, and the military, and Republicans, and conservatives and society etc..

So I could imagine all sorts of disasters happening if America suddenly left. I understand
that the sudden withdrawal of American forces under Obama led to the ISIS invasion
of Iraq.

 

To be fair to Vietnam, the Khmer rouge were regularly crossing the border causing mayhem and the Chinese invaded the north to support the KR.

I can't see Afghanistan projecting power outside of it's border for any foreseeable time.

 

What on earth are you babbling about? You really don't know a thing about this subject, so best you find another.

First, the 'peace deal' with North Vietnam allowed it to occupy 10% of South Vietnam & station something like 150,000 troops & personnel there. They were never required to leave. So wrong from the start.

North Vietnam invaded Laos in the late 1950s & Cambodia in the very early 1960s. They had troops & personnel there continuously from that time onward, so there necessarily could be no 'invasion' post US withdrawal. In fact, there were probably fewer Vietnamese personnel in Cambodia in 1974 than there had been in 1972. So points two & three wrong.

You got point three correct....sort of. I guess even stopped clocks get the right answer once in a while. What you didn't mention is that the US knew that the North would invade when they signed the 'peace deal'. In fact, Nixon & Kissinger privately referred to the 'peace deal' as an opportunity for a 'decent interval' between the US leaving and Sth Vietnam falling. Nixon didn't care about the Vietnamese either, to the point where he & Kissinger threatened the South with an immediate withdrawal of all support if it didn't sign the 'peace deal' that Sth Vietnam knew was its death sentence. All sides knew what would happen, and it is only partisans trying to rewrite history who pretend that the US was doing anything else.

Vietnam invaded Democratic Kampuchea after repeated bloody cross border raids by Cambodian forces. Pol Pot claimed everything from Saigon south ad Kampuchean territory. Vietnam repeatedly warned DK and even staged a raid of its own as a warning (which is when Hun Sen was picked up and turned to be a Vietnamese asset). DK continued its raids, so Vietnam invaded. America has invaded nations for less (Afghanistan, for example).

Trying to somehow link the wars with China to the US pulling out is even more bizarre than the rest of your post. China invaded Vietnam to punish it for invading its ally in DK & then launched another war to settle long running border disputes.

I assume there are topics you actually have some vague understanding of. This isn't one of them. By all means humiliate yourself in future by displaying your ignorance, but a wise man would choose a different path.

 

I think we actually agree, but with different interpretations.
When I talk about the "invasion" of Cambodia I should say "the takeover of Cambodia"
by a Nth Viet, Soviet and China backed communist party... but that's complicated.
Poor Cambodia was simply "invaded" by Communists.
And when Hanoi didn't like the Cambodian Communist Party (subtly renamed Khmer Rouge
by Marxist French intellectuals) we got another.
But.. the "blood bath" of Indochina did happen.

So my point is - you have to be as careful moving out of a country as you are moving
into it.

 

We shouldn't have been in Afg fighting Russians.

We should have brought the mountain down on bin Laden at Tora Bora; he was our only piece of business there... Unless or until the Afghanis wish to open trade relations with us.

We should have funded NGOs to mop up the mess we made and gone home.

We have no business there today.

 

The Taliban was in control when we invaded. They are still in control everywhere we arent actively killing them. They will be in control when we leave. Theres no reason for us to be there.

 

I accept your point. Lots of people do. The trouble is, I suppose, how do you get out
without leading to a blood bath? And... will a Taliban Afghanistan become another
terror central like Pakistan? And worse, will the Pakistani Taliban then have a safe
haven from which they can challenge the govt of Pakistan - and if they win, have
control of Pakistan's nuclear arsenal.

 

It appears there is now a question as to whether it was deliberate - some people calling themselves the Mujahideen are claiming they did it but very likely same as ISIS just claiming anything. The Taliban said not them. There again Trump has been massively bombing and killing the people in Afghanistan - maybe they are getting a bit tired of being killed and having their homes destroyed and of course when I heard there were top level intelligence agents in the plane then, possibly one of the many responses for the murder of Soleimani....but probably not top enough.

 

I don't consider the sources behind these reports reliable enough, but if Michael D'andrea was indeed one of the people killed in the plane crash in Afghanistan, it would indeed be significant.

The idea that "Iran" is claiming this is fictitious, but there are reports (citing Russian intelligence sources) making this claim in Iranian media (see articles below).
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/world-news/iran-claims-cia-boss-behind-21376999
Iran claims CIA boss 'behind Soleimani death' was killed in downing of jet by Taliban

https://en.mehrnews.com/news/155056/CIA-s-Michael-D-Andrea-reportedly-killed-in-US-plane-downing
CIA’s Michael D’ Andrea reportedly killed in US plane downing in Afghanistan

https://ifpnews.com/murderer-of-soleimani-killed-in-us-plane-downing-in-afghanistan-sources
Murderer of Soleimani Killed in US Plane Downing in Afghanistan: Sources

 

Yes, I just found the Mirror one claiming that Iran said this.
CIA boss 'behind Soleimani death' is 'killed in downing of jet', Iran claims

If he was on board it certainly is significant.

 

Yes. I think they are most likely just like other humans--all they want is to live their lives in peace, free from invading foreigners.

 

While i agree about Afghanistan in general i am not at all for proportionality. They bring down one of our planes, we bring down one of their cities, the Taliban that is. When it comes to us vs them, their lives are worthless. That said i don't care about the plane, did the crew get out?

 

Their lives are as worthless as the lives of you and your loved ones.

 

Not to me... when it comes to war our men and women who are fighting on our behalf are the supreme value in the region.

 

So are you saying **** all that sweet talk about the brotherhood of man and such? The US is an exceptional country with exceptional people who are actually modern day gods?

 

No not at all. They are just as important as we are, until one of them pulls a gun on one of us. Then regardless of value, i don't care about them at all and any decent American would feel the same way. Whether you approve of us being there or not, they are there in your place. Stand behind them or stand in front of them.

 

You seem confused and conflicted sir. In one post you declare them worthless, and 2 posts later you claim otherwise.

 

Hyperbole.

 

I hadn't read that Mirror story it says 'the Iran backed Taliban' ! How is the ordinary person ever going to be able to know what is going on when those who write papers do not...unless of course their lie is deliberate.

 

The ordinary person is deliberately kept in the dark and fed massive amounts of horse manure. That's the way the powers that be like it to be.

 

Ohh. You mean watching too much cnn and listening to progressives in the government, media and academia.

 

Not sure about survivors as there has not been an official report on the incident I can find. Still no official word on whether Michael D'andrea was on board and perished in the crash. Photos don't look good for those aboard, but there have been Taliban rumors ranging from all aboard dead to another statement saying they were looking for 2 survivors. Guess we will have to wait for an official statement from the US Government.