That's enough Bernie

Discussion in 'Elections & Campaigns' started by Bluesguy, Jul 3, 2019.

  1. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Let's "rotate" his Senate seat.
     
  2. vman12

    vman12 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Socialist governments aren't well known for separation of powers, are they?
     
  3. Rugglestx

    Rugglestx Well-Known Member

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    I like Bernie.
    He has clown hair when he gets all worked up and excited.

    [​IMG]

    It makes me laugh. :)
     
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  4. ArmySoldier

    ArmySoldier Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I'm 100% sure that the Conservatives, Republicans, Independents, and Liberal Democrats won't worry about your opinions. You have publicly said that you would vote for a School Shooting Murderer over Trump for President. Odd that you think other people would take you seriously.
     
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  5. Jestsayin

    Jestsayin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Odd how socialist Bernie Freeshit Sanders refused to share all his votes equally with the other candidates in the Iowa caucus.
     
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  6. DavidMK

    DavidMK Well-Known Member

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    That's not how elections, or socialism, works.
     
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  7. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Having a judiciary which is independent of the other branches of government is a good thing, as most people agree.

    Having a Constitution, or 'Organic Laws' as the same idea is sometimes called elsewhere, is also a good thing: laws which were passed, presumably, with great deliberation, and which cannot be
    easily overturned, not even by a single simple majority vote. This hopefully guards against temporary extreme shifts of opinion which might put bad people in power: assuming the apparatus of the state, especially its armed bodies of men (its core) remain loyal to the entire system -- including the courts -- then the courts can rule against the legality of a law that appears, in their judgement, to violate the 'basic law' -- the Constitution. Then, some slower, more deliberative process must be undertaken to change the law.

    The problem we have now is that all of the above assume that the polity is, at the end of the day, basically united. That we trust each other. That we trust that the 'other side', when they are in power, will not effectively destroy our side. And it means that we trust the courts to deal fairly, and not in a partisan manner, with laws and other issues (such as disputed elections).

    Where this is no longer the case, all of these arrangements break down, and we -- both sides -- are willing to condone cutting corners.

    Conservatives see liberal courts as 'legislating from the bench' -- making judgements that should be left to the democratic process: the ruling on abortion was an example, and on gay marriage. Progressives see it the other way around-- see the ruling on the Florida election, and on Citizens United, as purely partisan judgements.

    We no longer trust each other at the basic level. So the idea of 'packing' the court will get the approval of most people from either side, so long as it is their side doing the packing.

    No one will consider abstractly if, say, term limits, or a larger court, or rotation of judges, is a good idea -- they will only see it from the point of view of, say, will a proposed change allow them have a court which will allow them to imprison a Christian baker who cannot bake a wedding cake for a gay wedding. Or, if you're on the other side, will it allow them to have a court which prevents this.

    So it's largely pointless to argue on some abstract idea of what a 'best' court would be: one more subject ot the pressure of elected officials, or not. There are good arguments on both sides.
    But they are pointless, because they assume that we have some deep underlying solidarity with each other, a level of trust.

    This is no longer the case. The United States is moving towards the situation that prevails in many Third World countries, where the state is seen as an object to allow the plunder of the losers. In Latin America, a few decades ago, the better off class would happily support a military coup against a government that was seen as dangerously left wing, opening them up to wholesale confiscation of their property from an impoverished class. For their part, people from the impoverished class, or those young middle class radicals who sympathyzed with them, would happily support a Cuban-style revolution in order to achieve their ends. Neither side had a deep committment to liberal democracy.

    This is the situation we are moving towards in the US, and at a fairly rapid rate.

    Despire some desperate rearguard action by conseratives, the Left is destined to win this fight. Demographics will give it a permanent majority within a few more years, and this will be reflected in the composition of elected bodies. Eventually, even without any structural changes, the Supreme Court will have a permanent majority, perhaps even a unanimous majority, which will find anything the Left legislative majority -- which will be increasingly Left -- wants it to find in the Constitution, which will be seen as a 'living document'. Changes in the state apparatus will also occur, as the police and military are brought under close control of the new majority, through appointment of politically-acceptable top personnel, and recruitment at the bottom of from the pool of clients of the new Left majority.

    It's a very bleak future for conservatives and even moderates. They will just have to learn to go along. Those under the age of 70 should probably consider changing their political opinions now, and certainly cease to post politically-incorrect statements which can be linked to your real identity.
     
  8. StarFox

    StarFox Banned

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    Nice try but Trump's economic policies have worked FOR YOU. And you know it, and it is killing you to come to that realization. You are welcome.
     
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  9. Rugglestx

    Rugglestx Well-Known Member

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    A wee bit defeatist IMO.

    No doubt changing demographics will influence things. Age being the biggest one IMO, the entitlement society of the young wil drive movement towards socialism.

    But we have seem recent signs like 2016 here and BREXIT that all is not lost. And 2020 is looking like one more win for the good guys as Trump looks to be headed to reelection. Fights ahead but I'm not ready to give up the ship just yet..
     
  10. bomberfox

    bomberfox Active Member

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    I highly doubt he will be able to do so. Wouldnt support this either.
     
  11. bomberfox

    bomberfox Active Member

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    Geez trump supporters gotta shout in our faces all the time. Nobody owes you or trump gratitude.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2020
  12. Rugglestx

    Rugglestx Well-Known Member

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    His point was valid. Your benefiting from the current strong economy, we all are.

    Rather that is to the current POTUS credit is always up for debate. I heard a leftie (Obama's speech writer) last week claiming the current strong economy was still due to Obama. Either way person in power gets the blame and the credit so Trump gets some credit at least!
     
  13. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Actually, I'm optimistic, and I was just trying to make conservatives' flesh creep. But not because I think young Lefties will grow up to appreciate Constitutional restraints on government or the like.

    At the moment, people on the Right believe as you do: the kids will grow up and start paying taxes, and then they won't want to pay for more dope and welfare babies for the 'hood.

    Of course, there will be a little of this. But the 'older = more conservative' transformation is not as strong as many people think. And the 'more conservative' really means, 'more conservative' relative to the rest of the population .... if the whole population has been moving Left, then this may not be as important as we might think. There has been some academic research on this, and the results seem to be inconclusive. What is true is that relative to the society around them, older people are more conservative. But that society is changing.

    For instance, right now, many liberals are uneasy about imprisoning a Christian baker who cannot bake a gay wedding cake. (Of course, Progressives are very happy about this.)
    A fine, yes, even bankruptcy ... but not prison. Now, conservatives would oppose both imprisonment and fines and bankruptcy.

    Twenty years ago, the idea of a fine would have been absurd. At that time, even Obama and Hillary opposed gay marriage.

    In twenty years time, liberals will be indignant at the idea that a baker who cannot bake a cake for a gay wedding is NOT imprisoned. They will have become Progressives.
    It will be conservatives ... perhaps some of whom were liberals in their youth .. who will be saying, "Oh, a fine and bankruptcy are enough."

    I think we have to look at long-term trends, especially in the 'cultural apparatus' -- especially the education system -- that ultimately determines the unspoken assumptions of the population.
    Plus, factor in Third World immigration and birth rates. Again, some of these people will assimilate to traditional American values, and we should move heaven and earth to help that happen.
    But most won't. They will be -- despite cultural attitudes that align more with the Right -- a reliable source of votes for the Left. And they will not absorb a deep pro-American attitude -- this is fading even among the dominant white caste, so it cannot be expected from people whose ancestors were victims of America.

    So if you look at those changes -- generational and ethnic -- , you won't be optimistic about the future of the US as the kind of society it has been for 250 years.

    And there is another factor: we're on the way down, fast. Few people have taken this on board yet -- there is still the assumption that we are Number One, and far ahead of whoever is in second place, in terms of power, and that this will continue indefinitely into the future. Our foreign policy is still carried out as if this were the case.

    But you can't fool life, and at some point, we will experience a militiary humiliation -- not just our inability to save democracy in Vietnam or bring it to Iraq and Afghanistan and Libya, but a flat-out
    military defeat by a peer power, probably China.

    This will create a huge shock within the US. If that coincides with one of the world economy's periodic crashes ... things could get very ugly in the US.

    There is a way out, however..
     

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