what should we do about the situation in ukraine?

The USG regularly screws over our trading partners.

1. 2021: Betrayal of France by nullifying its contract with Australia to provide submarines.


“The United States and Britain recently announced they will support Australia in acquiring nuclear-powered submarines under a new trilateral security partnership.

The pact stripped France of a multi-billion U.S.-dollar contract to provide conventional submarines for Australia. Blasting the U.S.-led deal as a “stab in the back,” livid France then recalled its ambassadors to both the United States and Australia.” …

7. 2015/2021 US betrays Canada cancels Keystone Pipeline

“The Keystone Pipeline, an oil pipeline system connecting Canada and the United States, came into operation in 2010. Its proposed Phase IV, Keystone XL Pipeline, had been a source of tensions between the two neighbors for years.

In 2015, then U.S. President Barack Obama temporarily delayed the extension of the project run by TC Energy Corporation, a Canada-based energy company. After Donald Trump took office, he sought to revive the construction of the Keystone XL Pipeline. His successor, Joe Biden, revoked the permit for construction immediately after taking office. Months later, TC Energy Corporation abandoned plans for the Keystone XL Pipeline.

Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, in a phone conversation with Biden early this year, “raised Canada’s disappointment with the United States’ decision on the Keystone XL pipeline,” according to a readout. Canadian media accused the United States of betraying Canada.”

, A brief history of America’s betrayal of allies and partners, by Diplomatic Info October 1, 2021.

https://diplomaticinfo.com/a-brief-history-of-americas-betrayal-of-allies-and-partners/

 

The submarine deal was good for us. This thing for Ukraine is not. Let’s say there was a world war and what would Russia do with those pipe lines they’re about to take over? What will our Allie’s do when they can’t heat their homes? Side with us or them? You have already seen how quick the French can fold in WWII. They will fold again like a paper plate under a brick house. Germany has not truly been tested as an ally either. I don’t have a whole lot of faith in them. Our best allies are probably England and Australia. I think we made a good move there.

 

Germany now has a ruling coalition that is considerably more 'socialistic' than it was for those many years under Merkel and her CDU Party. Their new 'Kanzler" is Olaf Scholz, a big-wig in the country's Left-leaning SPD (Social Democratic Party). Olaf himself isn't a frothing-at-the-mouth, hyperliberal radical -- but -- the coalition he must keep together in Germany's parliamentary form of government does have a fairly large contingent of them.

Unfortunately, this whole thing in Ukraine has blown up at a very unfortunate time for Olaf and his coalition partners -- because Germany is in the process of getting rid of the last three of its nuclear power plants, they won't burn COAL anymore, 'solar and wind' aren't particularly productive in the German landscape (and the German NIMBY's don't want either of them anywhere 'in their backyards'), and the Nord Stream 2 Pipeline is being paralyzed by EU bureaucrats who can't figure out WHAT they should do....

As it is, Germans are paying unbelievably high prices for energy of all kinds right now -- with the prospect of even higher prices coming in the future. Oh... what to do?

Prediction: Russia invades Ukraine, takes what it wants, the EU huffs-and-puffs, holds tearful, hand-wringing meetings at the UN, and, in a few months, it all 'blows over' and they approve the Nord Stream 2 Pipeline... after which, everybody goes back to 'normal'....

."...and don't piss-off the Russians, or you'll end up like Napoleon and Hitler!"

 

Afghanistan is an entirely separate thread. War should be saved for issues that directly impact US national security interests, not trying to save allies (who do not want to be saved) from their own poor economic decisions. Or in other words, is protecting Ukraine from the Russians worth my son's life?

Answer: no.

 

I think our best bet is to nominate the most weak and feeble president in all of history to showcase our weakened state to Putin.

Oh wait that's what we did...lol

 

What will our Allie’s do when they can’t heat their homes?

What poor economic decisions? Since each of the European countries has its own policy, perhaps you could put some flesh on those bones?

I don't think Biden will give too much time to European energy needs...he seems more interested in pulling out of international commitments.
However Europe has special problem in that the EU's eastern border is "across the street" from the Russian border and TBH, Putin has been grumbling about it for a rather long time.
OTOH the countries in the EU along that border applied for membership of the EU and were accepted with, I suspect, a thanks that they cold act as a cushion against any Russian expansion.
WHICH of course is what Putin is nervous about.
In addition he knows he is getting older and wants to see his old Russian speaking federation back together as a unified country and Ukraine is the last domino to fall.
I would not be surprised if the Ukraine split in two, with the eastern half absorbed into Russia and the western half, already more pro Europe. Some agreement about future aggressions could be made and any idea of th western half joining the EU is put to one side (if it did, it would also join NATO and the situation would be back to square one).
As for the bigger problem now, NATO is not part of the equation. Ukraine is not in NATO, so not part of the defense that describes NATO.
Putin also has times this well..Quite a few general elections in Europe are being held this year, the UK is in a dreadful mess and very divided. The US as I said doesn't want another war and he does have that pipeline as leverage.

Please don't think all of Europe needs that gas/oil. Much of our consumption comes from the Middle East (and 7% of the UK energy is wind and solar). and of course they will put prices up but we won't freeze or starve to death. But thanks for your concern.

Finally it would be grown up if you stopped thinking that all of European identity stopped in 1941 when you finally entered WW2, after we held the Germans back for nearly three years without you. I find it laughable that the UK thinks it won the war and the USA thinks it did, and that Europe is still "primitive".
It is no way to think of your allies. In either direction.

 

Watched France24 news today. Sweden is moving troops to protect Gotland in the Baltic due to Russian build up and threats. Sweden and Finland are considering joining NATO according to them.

 

Yeah, I read that report, too.

Gotland Island is out in the middle of the Baltic Sea, right across from, and fairly near, the Russian Kaliningrad Oblast. I can't imagine why Sweden would feel threatened by Russia, though....

I found out just yesterday that the Baltic Sea is so shallow that you can't even move a large submarine through it and have it move undetected. Besides, what would Russia gain by starting a war with Sweden? Makes no sense to me....

 

If you want further information on European dependence on Russian natural gas, see @Joe knows , since he feels it's worth going to war over ( I do not).

I'm not sure what the rest of your rant has to do with anything I've said in this thread, but uh...more power to you and your list of complaints.

 

It's none of our business. Clinton broke the promise made by Bush to Gorbachev not to expand NATO and instead of reducing our bloated military budget and nuclear arsenal has increased it and has bullied other countries with cowardly sanctions and launched wars that killed hundreds of people. The same animals screeching for war like Kristol supported the invasion of Iraq. The democrats and republicans are existential threats to the planet. It's only a matter of time before these lunatics start WW3 unless they are put on a leash.

 

Then we should have been encouraging our NATO "partners" to shoulder more of the burden long ago.
Americans will not support another war under current political and military leadership. Our foreign policy and military elites have failed miserably since WW II. IMO, all of the conventional wisdom needs to be challenged.

George Washington to future leaders: ‘Keep It Simple Stupid!’

“As avenues to foreign influence in innumerable ways, such attachments are particularly alarming to the truly enlightened and independent patriot. How many opportunities do they afford to tamper with domestic factions, to practice the arts of seduction, to mislead public opinion, to influence or awe the public councils? Such an attachment of a small or weak towards a great and powerful nation dooms the former to be the satellite of the latter.

Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy to be useful must be impartial; else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people, to surrender their interests.

The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements, let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop.” President George Washington's Farewell Address (1796)

GW — still the best and the best and brightest.

 

Trump is Pootin's slave. He would do what his master commands him to do.

 

Of course, that is based on the assumption that Ukraine cannot stop a massive mechanized ground attack with the weapons systems and personnel they have had decades to assemble and deploy.

 

Yeah... sure... uh-huh.... BUT, Pitbull, who was president when Putin took Crimea in 2014?

And, who is president today as Putin masses >120,000 Russian military personnel, tanks, artillery, and jet fighters on or very near the border with Ukraine...?

Two different American presidents... right? And neither of them is DONALD TRUMP!

 

Then TG Putin commanded Trump to send Javelin missiles to Ukraine. Right?

 

Well, maybe Sweden know something we don’t. They’re always been low key, but their intelligence service has demonstrated a high level of skill in both world war (they also played both side during WW2, selling ressources to Germany and passing on information to the British).

what would Russia gain from a war with Sweden and also Finland, well beside quite a bunch of mineral ressources and technologies, they’d also get control of the Baltic and flank Poland and Germany.

 

Yes, you're correct... I have based my prediction on the assumption that Ukraine's military will experience decisive defeat if they attempt to engage in combat with Russian forces. You wouldn't need much of a 'crystal ball' to be able to foresee that....

 

ukrain will be decidedly defeated. They’re outnumbered, fractured, badly trained and the Ukrainian terrain isn’t ideal for guérilla warfare. I give them a week or two at most if Russia is serious about it.

 

Nahh, Trump sent them to get Ukraine to stop cooperating with Mueller on Manafort to get enough leverage on him to flip on Trump and Vlad. The timing was just too convenient.

 

Now that Biden has given Putin the green light we may find out soon.
OTOH, Putin may see something else in his 'crystal ball'. He knows far more about Ukraine and its defenses than we do.

 

I see.

 

Ah, you raise a very interesting point about FINLAND! Russia and Finland have had MUCH trouble (to put it mildly) during the past one hundred years especially. But, I don't yet see the possibility of conflict between Russia and Finland any time soon... and with Sweden, not at all....

 

We can only guess. I think Trump would support Pootin in a war against Ukraine.

 

And if Russia are really gunning for a serious campaign, their next move may be northward

Russia wouldn’t have any choice if war begins. They can’t leave Finland and Sweden on her flank while fighting it off with the rest of Europe. Especially since there are rumours of them considering joining NATO.

Putin’s action in Ukraine, Belarus and other of her neighbours has them feeling nervous.

 

Obama was a weak President. Trump was a traitorous President. Let's see how Joe positions himself.