Do we owe God obedience because God created us?

Excellent rebuttal yguy!

 

My point is simple: Signs and Wonders are never a logical basis for compelling obedience. Down through the ages, people have made this mistake: confusing the power to command with legitimate authority.

Our true nature, is to be free and responsible autonomous agents. We cannot be self-responsible, if our moral choices are dictated by another agent. Instead, through conferring with our fellows we can learn for ourselves what does good and what does harm, and then record those lessons in law which has objective validity, because no individual agent, no individual subject - no matter how powerful - is above it.

My point is that I am not obligated to regard God differently than I would any other person. Why should I? Now, if God were in some kind of trouble, and asking for my help, then depending on the circumstances I might be obligated on the grounds of ordinary compassion to help out.

I have always been open about being an anti-theist. I arrived at my conclusion after much observation and reflection. What I hate, are tyranny and hypocrisy - vices which I see as the core values of monotheism.

 

Essentially the same thing that scientists do by locking themselves into a box called 'man made logic'. It is logic, as used by scientists [manufactured by other men in the past], that you and scientists have voluntarily locked yourselves into. So you have essentially become a volunteer slave to the thoughts of men in the past, just like you accuse other people of having done "down through the ages". The change in Einsteins theory should serve as evidence of his willingness to maintain an open mind and change his theory to suit the needs. BTW: Your rationalization (closing statement above) still does not address what "legitimate authority" really is.

What is "our true nature" MP? Do you really know, or is that just one of those little catch phrases you like to throw into a conversation without knowing the meaning? How is anything "objective" realized?

Who suggested that you are obligated toward God? Remember ,,, FREE WILL.

Yes! You are open to being 'anti-theist'... you are openly looking at the walls of the box that surrounds you and holds you captive... sadly, you don't even realize that you are volunteering to be one that is in such captivity.

 

It all does come down to whether or not you accept that might makes right. Pure authoritarianism.

The thing is, as the power of religions fade, as they have since the above posts were written, other forms of authoritarians have risen. Authoritarian thinkers will exist with or without religions.

And perhaps containing authoritarian thinking within religion and to an imaginary highest authority isn't the worst idea, since that allows room to disagree and debate over interpretation of what the imagined authority decides and commands. With an authority who can speak directly for themselves, that's not available.

 

You're assuming God created us for obedience. Which religion did you get that belief from?

 

Islam?
http://submission.net/what-is-islam/
https://www.whyislam.org/islam/what-is-submission/

 

Does God owe us an afterlife in Paradice?

 

I don't see why a creator God would owe the creation anything, and I don't see why we would owe the God anything either.

 

They usually call him Allah but that would make sense.

 

Take away your pet's food dish and then tell me how that worked out.

 

You can believe in a supernatural entity that created everything but that belief would not impart any life guidance, you would have to sign up for your chosen religious philosophy. Under its strictures then you would be expected to worship it and obey the rules, supposedly passed down from it.

 

Nope, so we'd better appreciate the life we have already.

 

That's awesome, Todd.

Who would have ever thought we'd find wisdom in a dog bowl?

 

That's not the point. Obedience if for living with an omnipotent God in eternity. That is, with human intelligence we can't understand God's deeds all the time. Thus we need faith to trust that HIs deeds are all with a good intend ultimately, and we need to be obedient even at the time we failed to understand it.

 

NO way i can remain obedient to a "God" that has soo many insane and illogical rules.

 

I agree. They say that obedience and trust in God for the cause of our eternity is a vain pursuit in a fable. Yet they make and comport themselves to their own laws and ultimately wind up in the grave. So which is more vain, certain death or the promise of eternal life. Anyway, their judgment is silly. One would think that death would be more fearsome and grievous than the tender mercies of a loving God.

Your expression of faith and allowance for the excellence of God as opposed to the confines or prison of unbelief, is commendable and inspiring. Unbelievers cannot see that this life is a forerunner of that which is to come. They know that if they want a fruit, they must first plant the seed, labor for its growth in faith, and look forward with hope in the fruit. Yet they will not apply the same principles to salvation. It is a distinct possibility that they simply do not want all that God has to offer in eternal life. Such is the Priesthood like authority of free choice, with which all people are endowed.

 

That's the lovely thing about Gods. Since they are creations of our minds, they can have whatever rules you do find logical.

 

RE: Do we owe God obedience because God created us?
SUBTOPIC: Characteristics of Deities
※→ Jolly Penguin, et al,

INTRODUCTION: Can man know the "Characteristics" of the Supreme Being? (RHEtORICAL) Is there any way to debate "God Powers" as a function(s) of the Supreme Being? (RHEtORICAL) Can we distinguish the Diety of the Abrahamic Religions? (RHEtORICAL)

{Is there only one deity? How was that determined? Is there a difference in what is a valid God and what is not a valid God?
And if so, what are these differences? Who determined these differences?}
​

How Many Gods Are There In The World? Best Answer 2022

(SEPARATELY)
Validity and Soundness

✦ A deductive argument is said to be valid if and only if it takes a form that makes it impossible for the premises to be true and the conclusion nevertheless to be false. Otherwise, a deductive argument is said to be invalid.​

✦ A deductive argument is sound if and only if it is both valid, and all of its premises are actually true. Otherwise, a deductive argument is unsound.​

(IS THERE AN INTELLIGENT WHY TO ADDRESS tHIS INQUIRY)

The questions are really concerned with the abilities and limitations of a human to know (man's understanding of the supernatural). Why are some aspects and beliefs of the "supernatural" adjudicated as "wrong?" Why are some aspects and beliefs of the "supernatural" believed to be "right?":

◈ What can be known?
◈ What is known?
◈ How do we know it?​

(COMMENT)

Before we can establish the nature and obligation to a deity, we have to ascertain if a deity exists. Is there a way to intelligently determine existence?

“The Cosmos (notice the capital “C”) is everything that ever was, is and will be.”
...........................................................................................................Carl Sagan
​

ASSUMPTIONS (W/O EVIDENCE): For the moment, and to avoid scientific 'vs' faith based philosophical entanglements, let us assume that there is a supernatural existence in a monotheistic environment for The Supreme Being. The Supreme Being may bethought of as the ultimate authority of reality, the laws of nature and the other supernatural entities, and the creator of the all energy that comes together to form the universe (AKA: Yahweh). The Supreme Being is the sole source of human identity; with, self-imagery (how we see our selves) and the assembly of sensory information that forms the what we perceive and believe to be reality (external imagery - how we see the world).

Characteristics of God include the following:

1. God is Holy
2. God is Good
3. God is Just
4. God Is Impartial
5. God is Infinite
6. God is Patient
7. God Is Faithful
8. God is Love

The Omnis of God:

1. Omnipotence: God is all-powerful.

2. Omniscience: The Bible makes it clear that God is all-knowing.

3. Omnipresence: God is all-together everywhere all the time.​

Humans cannot even begin to imagine what infinite powers mean, or the intent (characteristics) of an infinite being actually means. What does it mean for the Supreme Being to be "Holy" or "just?"

IF human are ultimately capable of being "disobedient," THEN either the Supreme Being

◈ Is flawed in the creation.

◈ Is intentionally engineering flaws.​

It is impossible to determine the focus of a Supreme Being is...


Most Respectfully,
R

 

and as such - we do not.. Further .. since we do not know what obedience to God is - even if we figured we owed something - we do not know what to pay.

"The Bible" - Lord YHWH - has a taste for the blood of children .. likes a little child sacrifice here and there .. Is this the reason why society has gone so haywire ... not enough child sacrifice ?

 

RE: Do we owe God obedience because God created us?
SUBTOPIC: Characteristics of Deities
※→ Giftedone, Jolly Penguin, et al,

I am quite appreciative of our friend "Giftedone" for his insight. That is a very deep question. Even if every observation of mine was overcome - we would still have to address "Giftedone's" next logical question. "We do not know what to pay." - or - How to pay it?

(COMMENT)

※→. Oh "Giftedone" even while your observation ("likes a little child sacrifice here and there") is correct, that leads us to another series of questions. What can humanity offer a deity that wants for nothing? The entity that is the - • Omnipotence • - the alpha and the omega (if there is a finish) of the universe and the keeper of all wisdom - • the Omniscience - all-knowing • - as Soloman put it in his daily ✪ First Oration ✪ → "Without a Beginning and Without an End." Based on the 1657 Translation of The Notary Art of Solomon by Robert Turner). It is sometimes referred to as the Ancient Code. You will find the prayer on page five. Pay special attention to the passage of the Great Key:

EXCERPT from the Notory Art of Solomon
I humbly implore and beseech, that thou wilt mercifully with the Father, illustrate my Minde with the
beams of thy holy Spirit, that I may be able to come and attain to the perfection of this most holy
Art; and that I may be able to gain the knowledge of every Science, Art, and Wisdom; and of every
Faculty of Memory, Intelligences, Understanding, and Intellect, by the Vertue and Power of thy most
holy Spirit, and in thy Name.
​

All the traits that King Solomon is famous for - Solomon believed came to him as a response to this prayer. Of all the course work I did into the study of Hebrew Magic, Alchemy, spiritual communication, I think I captured the essence behind the God of Abraham. Many believe taught by an old man in a kippah who spoke clearly to the dozen of us (or so) about the evolution of and flow of information that came to King Solomon. The course was so amazing, I audited it twice more because I always captured something new.

“My brain is only a receiver, in the Universe, there is a core from which we obtain
knowledge, strength, and inspiration. I have not penetrated the secrets of this
core, but I know that it exists.
...................................................................................................... — Nikola Tesla

​

I do not know, like Nikola Tesla if knowledge and wisdom entity (something independent) or some other aspect we do not know yet. But any bio-electric instrument that can understand and develop Quantum Mechanics is truly amazing and quite out of the ordinary. We do not know exactly how The Ark of the Covenant worked if it indeed it did anything. But King Solomon seemed to think that it was essential to his ability to communicate with the divine.


Most Respectfully,
R

 

Both are good questions -- the answers to which would dispell a whole lot of silliness in religious belief .. sort out a bunch of theological questions.

Take the self flagelators for example -- beating oneself. If God wanted you punished .. it would be done .. Some believe that being sent here to Earth was punishment "Hell on Earth" so to speak ... and where we go after ...where ever that is .. .is not. Cathars for example.

The question of the Trinity -- the claim that Jesus is God .. makes nonsense out of the crucifixion. If it was really God hanging there on the cross .. then we should not feel sorry for God -- as he put himself there .. and any pain he feels is self inflicted ..

And what to make of the words "My God - My God - Why have you forsaken me" .. In some kind of masochistic bliss .. did God forget who he was and start ranting against himself ?

I look at it like a scientist doing an experiment - as clearly the creator must have had some kind of purpose in mind for its creation. Now perhaps God looks in from time to time on the experiment .. to see how things are going.. but, does not generally intervene .. as that would render the experiment pointless. No point in doing experiment if you are going to adjust the result

Can humans tap into the divine Godhead .. who knows .. perhaps a little message from the Godhead filters through from time to time .. something designed into the experiment..

 

Your comments on the "box" of science is easily explained.

There is no way for mankind to test god.

God can test man. But, man can't test god.

Do you agree with that?

So the problem facing science is that science TOTALLY DEPENDS on testing ideas.

If those ideas include god, then science is dead in the water, because science has NEVER had a way to test that.

Do you know of a way for science to test god?

 

If God exists and He is omnipotent and He gave us a choice: obedience or burning forever, it is no-brainer: if you are not an idiot you must to obey.
But God never claimed He is good, explicitly He wrote:
"You shall not make for yourselves an idol, nor any image of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: you shall not bow yourself down to them, nor serve them, for I, Yahweh your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and on the fourth generation of those who hate me, and showing loving kindness to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments."
— Exodus 20:2-6 (WEB)

God in the New Testament was not better. He allowed to His only Son to be crucified... Some kind of father.

 

We obey our Parents, the law, our employers or anyone to whom we are in service, or do honor and love. Why would it be unusual to obey God who made us and all things, and who then laid down his life for us. If Gods entire work and glory is to bring about our immortality and eternal life, then obedience seems the least we can do in return. In fact, that and sincere thankfulness and love is about all that we really have of any value to give to him, as all else is already his. I think that if we love other than ourselves and live by our consciences, then we in part already obey God. And this I also believe is because our consciences are a remnant of his glory to help guide us in life and light our way.

 

You have to believe the new testament justification for the sacrifice of his son.

I'm more affected by the claim that he will take vengeance on the third and fourth generations of offenders.

I don't see how that fits in to anything else the bible says about individuals and forgiveness.