What is your relationship with Western civilisation?

Sigh.

 

Absolutely. You could make a good case for saying that Western culture was seeded in the gods of Greece and the later nationalism and drive for empire in Persia under Alexander and copied by the Romans.
My comments about Islam are that it was one tributary of the river that became what we see from a great altitude as Western civilization. It contributed a notable amount of material to the modern Western world.

 

The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars,
But in our incompetence.

 

Agree Christianity and Islam in Conflict.

Christianity is an anathema to Western Civilization - Teachings of Jesus are foundational.
Christianity is far more a threat to Islam than the reverse .. Christianity is also an internal threat to Western civilization .. far more than Islam is an existential threat.

 

Christianity and Islam were definitely in conflict but they still drew many of their holy writings from the same pool of myths and stories. Islam also preserved the writings of Greek philosophers for the renaissance in Europe.

Sadly, much of Islam went to a dark place due to the rise of anti-science sentiment while Europe went in the opposite direction.

We can only hope that the anti-science movement that exists within some religions today will not have as much success at repressing the study of the natural world.

 

You must be stuck in the 1500s. No one is repressing study of the natural world.

 

That’s why I dress like this:

 

Nice. I especially like the shoes.

 

Islam believes that there can never be peace until all the world is under Islam. I find that as faulty as the liberalism that we're trying to impose on the world. Even worse, would be the World Economic Forums Great Reset, which is communist totalitarianism similar to the USSR but under corporate control.


We want to be free!

 

Western civilization proved that a society built upon individual freedom can be prosperous, that humans dont need to be controlled to advance and excel. Unfortunately some people think we're not advancing and prospering fast enough, and they think going back to authoritarian collectivism is the answer. If they get their wish, it will be hell on earth and we'll all regret it. But unlike in the past, technology exists that can prevent our escape from such a system. Feudalism 2.0 will be a lot worse than anything we've yet seen.

 

I disagree! Christianity is Western civilization and it was brought about from the martyrdom of Christ's disciples and the Saints that came after them.

Our problem is that we have no idea of what Europe was like before Christianity since the only writings were in the monasteries and they were discarded by the Protestants for there own reasons.

Was there human sacrifice? I'm sure there were. Was there cannibalism? I'm sure there was. Was there unimaginable tortures? I'm sure there was.

 

Western Civilization is defined more by philosophy than by Christianity.

 

Look - what you are calling "Christianity" - was not the Christianity of Jesus - from round 400 AD .. throughout the Holy Roman Empire - middle ages round till the enlightenment come .. Napoleon .. I round it and call it the 1000 years of horror.. though don't think there was much cannibalism going on .. but plenty of human sacrifice .. and torture the mind can not fathom ... hence the term 1000 years of horror.

You say WC was founded on this .. I say .. OK .. obviously it is our past . but what Western Liberal Democracy was founded on .. was the principles of the Enlightenment .. which include the teachings of Jesus .. teachings to which the 1000 years of horror was an anathema .. the opposite of Christs teachings .. in the most abominable ways imaginable .. the "Awfull Horror" if you wish to get scriptural .. The Anti - Christ ..

Got to know .. the good from the bad .. dark path from dat wit tru .. nuttin good about the path went down .. dis "Universal Church" .. Orthodox kept a better line .. but they not da ones WC founded on now ..

Divergence - Tell me - who be the Satan of the OT .. to the Rabbi's what the say bout him... and relationship with Jah ... Rastafa..

 

Archaeological excavations and science has shown quite clearly what the western world was like thousands of years before christ. We know how they fed themselves, kept warm, socialised, created artifacts, painted cave walls , travelled and worshipped.
Christianity built on their holidays, customs, calendars etc.
Western civilization goes back thousands of years and is not at all defined by or synonymous with christ.

 

Yeah.... We just measure the passage of time by it.

 

Or by the development of the human being as they find solutions to problems.

 

Western Civilization has given us much of what we see as modern today.

Sure it needs adjustment it always will humans aren't perfect. What you do is you adjust it. There are some pretty awful things that came from it such as Karl Marx and the 200 million or so people who have died at the hands of his ideas. I'm the best I just meant to do moving forward is don't make that mistake again but it seems a lot of people within Western Civilization or desperate to do just that. That's probably one of the best adjustments we can do

Western Civilization you should be applauded for its achievements and everybody understands those achievements came with sacrifices I'm pretty sure the world is a whole lot better now than if Western Civilization had never happened.

 

Christianity is so embedded into so many aspects of Western Civilization I can't even imagine the concept of a "post-Christian West". Even in a post-Classical world the contributions of Ancient Greece and Rome endure.

 

Women's advancement, inroads to ending slavery, relatively well performing economic systems, research and scientific advancements, philosophical refinement all speak well for what is usually referred to as "the west". Many catastrophes and errors can be identified as well and that is part of what makes it similar in ways to other identifiable regions.

 

Indeed. But they were not Christian.
And of course Christianity will leave a very deep footprint whatever happens.
You can't tear down all those churches and cathedrals, erase all the music and literature and rewrite all that law.

 

Classical Greece fell before it became Christianized and was a province of Rome when Paul and others began preaching in that country, but the emperors Theodosius I, Gratian and Valentinian II made Nicene Christianity the official creed of the Roman Empire in 380 AD:

Edict of Thessalonica
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Thessalonica

True, and more. Many scholars credit Christianity for laying the groundwork of the Individualism and Liberalism (in the Classical sense) that are two of the defining features of Western Civilization. One of them, Larry Siedentop, chronicles this in his book/polemic Inventing the Individual: The Origins of Western Liberalism:



In addition to Law, the natural rights doctrines we are familiar with today were derived, in part, from Christianity and by Christians. In fact, the first rights doctrine was developed by the Franciscan monk William of Ockham (1285-1347), who building on the work of earlier rights theorists, civil jurists, canon lawyers and decretists, asserted the rights to freedom of conscience, expression and property, the sovereignty of the people, the separation of church and state and the social contract theory that has been mistakenly attributed to the likes of Hobbes and Locke. According to Siedentop, this all began with Jesus (and his Apostles) who overthrew the assumption and acceptance of natural inequality that was a feature of the Ancient World and asserted that we are defined by our individual moral agency, not our family, place in the family, sex, social status, wealth, citizenship and freedom (or lack thereof).

Of course, all of this slowly evolved and expanded over the centuries, most notably during the Enlightenment, but the origins can be traced back much earlier, and the Ancient Greeks and Romans made their own contributions in establishing the rule of law, without which our rights can never be secured.

 

Well I don't expect Western Civilization to last much longer after "post-Christian" becomes the norm, and we're certainly well on our way.

 

There is nothing dangerous in a world without religion. In fact the world would stop killing each other and destroying that which we have built, if there were no religion.
Instead we would truly and proudly stand on our own two feet and make our own decisions.

 

Generally, I prefer it and think it is overall the best society there is. But that doesn't mean it doesn't have negatives or can't be improved. There is a lot of aspects of eastern society that I prefer. I recently learned that the Vietnamese instead of venerating Gods, pay respects to their deceased ancestors. Their homes all have shrines dedicated to their departed, regardless of how long ago they died. It is a nice sentiment, and makes a lot more sense to me than paying your respects to a stranger who may not even have ever existed.

 

Religion is but one of a wide variety of tribalism that leads people to destroy one another and what was built before. China used to have a very rich cultural history, and under Mao it was destroyed along with many many people in the great leap backwards, and that had nothing to do with religion. There was some progress afterward, but Xi is taking China back in that same direction now. A world without religion does not mean we truly and proudly stand on our own two feet and make our own decisions.