A favorite argument by non-believers is that Jesus Christ's existence is confined to the pages of the Judeo-Christian Bible. When presented with documentary evidence of his historical existence, Bible critics then use another ploy: they attack the credibility of those who confirmed the existence of Jesus Christ and/or they attack the credibility of what was written about Jesus Christ. Below are three non-Christians from the 1st Century AD who mentioned Jesus Christ in their secular writings. The questions for debate are at the end of this post. PERSON #1: Name and Occupation: Cornelius Tacitus, Roman Historian DOB to Date of Death: A.D. 55 to A.D. 120 Attitude Towards Christianity: Hostile What He Said: He confirmed that CHRISTUS (a common misspelling of Christ at the time) was executed by Pilate. PERSON #2: Name and Occupation: Flavius Josephus, Jewish Historian DOB to Date of Death: 37 AD -- Died after 100 AD Attitude Towards Christianity: Apathetic (could care less about them) What He Said: He confirmed that Christ who performed miracles was executed by Pilate. Highlights on Flavius Josephus: A Jewish historian of priestly and royal ancestry who recorded Jewish history, with special emphasis on the 1st century AD (the century in which Jesus Christ lived and died). PERSON #3: Name and Occupation: Pliny The Younger (born Gaius Plinius Caecilius Secundus), Roman Governor DOB to Date of Death: 61 AD to 112 AD Attitude Towards Christianity: Hostile. He executed Christians What He Said: Referred to Jesus Christ as a "god of the Christians." Highlights on Pliny: Pliny condemned Men, Women, and children to death if they refused to curse Christ and if they refused to deny they were Christians. DISCUSSION QUESTIONS: 1. All three of the individuals described above were people in powerful positions who were anti-Christian and belonged to groups that actively killed Christians. All three individuals belonged to organizations that were responsible for Jesus' death. What did they have to gain from mentioning the existence of Jesus Christ in their writings--thereby confirming his historical existence? 2. Flavius Josephus, a Jew, was born a mere four years after Jesus was executed. He became a Jewish Pharisee as an adult, in addition to becoming a respected historian and advisor to the Roman emperor. Do you see anything significant to his being a Pharisee, a historian, and Roman emperor advisor--and the fact that he mentioned Jesus Christ in his writings? 3. Cornelius Tactitus was known as the greatest historian of his time, during which he lived through the reign of over a half-dozen Roman emperors. Do you see anything significant to his resume and the fact that he mentioned Jesus Christ in his writings? Alter2Ego
Going to be hard for the Christ deniers to explain away so most likely they're going to come and attack the source and try to undermine it's credibility by casting doubt on the authenticity of the statements.
The whole Jesus mythicist movement, despite its popularity in some atheist circles, doesn't really have any real academic backing. There's only one actual historical scholar I've been able to find who actually promotes it: Richard Carrier. And even he admits that the burden of proof is on his side and that he has a steep hill to climb. Yes, Jesus most likely existed. We probably even have a good idea of many of his teachings and some of the historical events he was involved in, most notably his execution. And most of the pagan parallels proposed by atheists are complete garbage. I'm talking about the Mithras, Dionysus, Horus, Osiris, etc. comparisons. The mythicist scholars, rather than being historical scholars, are typically textual critics. They are literary scholars. And they take ENORMOUS liberties. I remember once being told by an atheist that Jesus was based on Dionysus, and that the Greeks believed that Dionysus had been crucified and resurrected. As an avid fan of Greek mythology, my immediate reaction was, "Um, what the ****?" So I had to do some research to find out what he was talking about. He told me the book he had gotten it from, whose title I forget at the moment, but it said that this came from a play called The Bacchae. Okay, not only was I a big fan of Greek mythology, and in particular Dionysus, but I had read this play. Is Dionysus crucified in this play? No. Does he even die, much less get resurrected? No. Does ANYONE get crucified in this play? No. Crucifixion wasn't even a Greek method of execution, as far as I know. The only person who dies in this play is Dionysus's cousin, a king. Dionysus tricks him into crossdressing and hiding in a tree to spy on a lesbian blood orgy . . . a lesbian blood orgy that ends up involving this king being dragged from the tree and ripped to pieces. So, no, not crucifixion. And he isn't resurrected. And he wasn't Dionysus. But the authors claimed that this king represented Dionysus's "lower self" being sacrificed so that his "higher self" (in the form of the actual Dionysus) could live on in some sort of figurative resurrection. And the crucifixion part? Yeah, that's just because there was a tree involved in the story. That's it. That's why they decided to call it crucifixion. Because there was a tree. The Horus parallels are possibly even worse. I've had atheists tell me that Horus was supposedly crucified and resurrected. Now, I didn't know as much about Egyptian mythology as I did about Greek mythology, but I still easily spotted this as bull ****. The person who I called out about this even got angry and told me to read the Egyptian Book of the Dead . . . which I had already done. I still have the same copy of the Budge translation as I had back then. There's nothing in there about Horus being crucified. So what was the ultimate source of this story? Well, after a lot of digging, all I can find is that Horus was sometimes portrayed with his arms outstretched . . . that's it. It's a common pose for Egyptian deities . . . especially ones associated with ****ing birds. But if you stretch out your arms, that apparently means you were crucified. Even though that isn't even how crucifixions were always performed.
I respect the hell out of you dude, but this video is complete nonsense. I'm skipping to around the 6:10 minute mark and it's talking about Horus being born on December 25th, born of a virgin, star in the east, adored by 3 kings, teacher at 12, baptized at 30. I can say with 100% confidence that there is no pre-Christian source that says any of these things about Horus. (I'll also throw in that the Bible mentions nothing about Jesus being born on December 25th or being adored by 3 kings). These rumors were started by poets and other writers in the 1800s, like Kersey Graves, who is the biggest popularizing "source" for these claims. Graves also claimed that Hindus believe that Krishna was crucified and that Buddhists believe Buddha was crucified. Which is, of course, complete bull ****. I'll have to find the source for you, but years ago a group sent a letter to many of the world's top Egyptologists asking them about these Horus comparisons. All of the Egyptologists said it was BS. If people are interested, I can go into some of the other claims made in the video. I could also try to steelman their argument and find any comparisons that actually appear accurate.
Regarding Josephus, I know people will bring up the argument that historians regard this reference as a forgery. But this is only half true. Or, well, maybe a little less than half. But Josephus references Jesus twice. Only one of those two references is considered a forgery, and historians generally believe that one is an embellishment on an existing reference to Jesus in the text; they don't typically argue that it was just made up whole cloth, but instead that Josephus had mentioned Jesus here and that a Christian scribe added his own "flair" to it, which wasn't unusual for scribes to do at the time.
Something that has also impressed me personally is when a near death experiencer meets Jesus during their brush with death and He shows them details about the background situation to events in their lives that they could not have guessed. One of the most astonising cases is the near death experience account of Bruce F. MacDonald who was shown Jesus teaching his disciples some of the truly deep ideas of the Essene Community who probably had a great deal of influence over John the Baptist and Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus. Warning..... DO NOT read the following discussion if you want to limit the doctrines of Christianity to what was understood five centuries in the past: Your nomination for Nobel Prize in Literature?
I am not historian, but read a little about historical evidence about Jesus, so I asked 3 AI questions about Jesus: Did Cornelius Tacitus write about Jesus? Mistral: Yes, Cornelius Tacitus, a Roman historian, is believed to have written about Jesus, or at least about Christians and the execution of Jesus by the Romans. In his work "Annals," written around 116 AD, Tacitus refers to Christ, his execution by Pontius Pilate, and the existence of early Christians in Rome. This passage is one of the earliest non-Christian references to Jesus. However, the authenticity of this passage has been debated by some scholars, with a few suggesting it may have been altered by later Christian scribes, although the majority believe it to be authentic. chatGPT: Yes, Cornelius Tacitus, a Roman historian who lived during the 1st and 2nd centuries AD, mentioned Jesus in his work "Annals," specifically in Book 15, Chapter 44. This passage, often referred to as the "Tacitus passage," discusses the persecution of Christians under Emperor Nero in Rome after the Great Fire of Rome in AD 64. Tacitus refers to Jesus as "Christus" and provides some information about the origins of Christianity and its founder. While Tacitus' mention of Jesus is brief and not particularly detailed, it is one of the earliest non-Christian references to Jesus and serves as a valuable historical confirmation of his existence Gemini: Yes, Cornelius Tacitus, a Roman historian, briefly mentions Jesus in his work, Annals, written around 116 AD. This is considered one of the earliest extra-biblical references to Jesus. Tacitus refers to Jesus as "Christus" and mentions his execution by Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius. He also describes the early Christians as a "superstition" that originated in Judea. While it doesn't provide extensive details, it does offer some corroboration for details found in the New Testament. Scholars debate the significance of this passage due to Tacitus being born after Jesus' death, but it is generally seen as a valuable independent source because it aligns with other historical records. Did Flavius Josephus write about Jesus? Mistral: Yes, Flavius Josephus, a Jewish historian who lived in the first century AD, is believed to have written about Jesus in his work "Antiquities of the Jews." This passage, known as the "Testimonium Flavianum," describes Jesus as a wise man, a doer of wonderful works, and a teacher who was crucified under the orders of Pontius Pilate. However, the authenticity of this passage has been debated by scholars. Some believe that it was entirely or partially inserted by later Christian scribes, as the language and tone seem to be at odds with Josephus' other writings. Others argue that while the passage may have been altered by Christian scribes, it originally contained a genuine reference to Jesus. Despite the controversy, the passage is still widely cited as an early non-Christian reference to Jesus. chatGPT: Yes, Flavius Josephus, a Jewish historian who lived in the 1st century AD, also mentioned Jesus in his works. The most significant passage where Josephus references Jesus is found in his "Antiquities of the Jews," specifically in Book 18, Chapter 3, Paragraph 3. This passage, commonly referred to as the "Testimonium Flavianum," provides some information about Jesus, his crucifixion, and his followers. However, it's important to note that the authenticity of the Testimonium Flavianum has been a subject of scholarly debate. Some scholars argue that the passage contains interpolations or additions by later Christian scribes, while others contend that it contains some authentic information about Jesus. Regardless, Josephus does mention Jesus elsewhere in his writings, such as in reference to James, the brother of Jesus, in "Antiquities of the Jews," Book 20, Chapter 9, Paragraph 1. These mentions, along with other extra-biblical references, contribute to the historical understanding of Jesus and early Christianity. gemini: Yes, Flavius Josephus, a first-century Jewish historian, does mention Jesus in his writings. There are actually two main points to consider: The Testimonium Flavianum: This is the most famous passage, found in Josephus's book "Antiquities of the Jews." It describes Jesus as a wise teacher and miracle worker, crucified by Pontius Pilate. However, the authenticity of this entire passage is debated by scholars. Some believe it may have been altered by later Christian scribes. Reference to James: There's another passage considered more reliable. In "Antiquities," Josephus mentions the death of James, the brother of Jesus, referring to him as "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ." While the details surrounding the Testimonium Flavianum are complex, there is evidence that Josephus acknowledged Jesus' existence. My opinion as Pastafarian? Probably Jesus is historical figure.
