SInce edcation is horrible in the US is a college degree even help?

We all know that our educational system produces illiterate people. My question is if we are that far behind the rest of the world does having a degree really matter? I don't mean people should not go to college but if the final product isn't helping our economy what's the point. Are we really productive?

 

A productive person is better than an educated unproductive person. But, an educated productive person is best. To get a college education, you have to be at least somewhat productive.

 

I believe it does..I recently read a study, if it can be believed, that said that college graduates were less likely to have lost their jobs in this downturn.

I do think we're going to have to change how we educate our children..and help them make better life decisions. Not everyone is college material..and we ought to make certain that vocational training is made available to those who are better suited to it.

The 'elite' in our society seem to look down on those who make a living with their brains...and their hands. And I doubt that there are as many skilled workers out of a job; but I could be wrong.

My kingdom for a good mechanic or plumber..

 

With that attitude, probably not. Hundreds of thousands of foreigners flock to America for a high-quality education. It's a crying shame so many imbecile Americans would rather lay around eating Cheetos waiting for handouts. The liberal model. Keep 'em dumb and dependent.

You are not entitled to a happy, successful life. You must earn it. College isn't a guarantee. Hard, honest work will get you closer.

Be a slug all your life if you wish, but don't expect any sympathy from hard-working educated people.

I have zero sympathy, empathy, sorrow for slack-jawed layabouts who expect someone to give them a break. Make your own breaks. And FFS, quit whining.

 

Now that is one thing I think other countries do better than the US. If you are not college material they pretty much make you a mechanic our some type of blue collar work theat produces for the country. Here you may go to college bomb out and then work at Wendy's. Or just go straight to Kmart from High school. But thoses other countries treat mechanics as if they are of value and not a low life like we do over here.

 

Colleges do not produce illiterate people. Colleges produce educated people.

You are mixing up colleges and universities with public elementary and secondary schools which, because of their mission, fail to produce the educated product they are capable of producing.

American public schools were originally intended to teach children the academic basics. The first of them were created under the Old Deluder Satan Act. This act was meant to teach village children enough rudimentary skills to fight the Old Deluder, Satan, by being able to read and understand The Bible.

The education system continued to have as its primary purpose the educating of children under such people as Horace Mann. It was only more recently that the purpose seems to have been changed to one of socialization and making children feel good about themselves. People such as Dr. Max Rafferty and S.I. Hayakawa recognized this diluting of teaching and warned against it in the seventies and eighties but were not only ignored but derided by both the government and the educational heirarchy. The result is what we have today; an educational system more interested in teaching socialization skills and making children feel good about themselves than in actually educating them.

So much time is taken up by government mandates, mandates which by the way are usually not funded by the government mandating them, that little time is left for actual academic learning.

It is suggested that Reading be taught for a minimum of forty five minutes five days a week, math the same, social studies and science three days a week for at least a half hour. Meeting these suggestions is almost impossible within the present educational structure which mandates that children be given physical education, music, art, etc. in addition to time spent on peer counseling, sex education, empathy education, etc.

What needs to be done is to extend both the school day and the school year. The day should be extended by one hour and that hour should be used to teach the socialization skills while the rest of the day should be used for teaching academic skills.

Extending the school year will address the problem of children having to be retaught things they learned during the school year but forgot over the long summer vacation. Rather than a long summer vacation the children should be given more, shorter vacations and the school year should be increased from an average of one hundred eighty days to a minimum of two hundred thirty.

Schools should also follow some sort of modified German model in which students are tracked rather than being lumped together in homogenous classrooms. While having seperate schools for different degrees of academic rigor as they do in Germany might be going too far, there should at least be tracking within the school so that those academically more gifted are not held back by the present American custom of teaching to the lowest.

Sports should be deempathized and academics should be more empathized. The purpose of a school should not be to turn out athletes but to produca a productive, educated citizenry.

There is nothing wrong with American education that a change in focus could not easily rectify.

 

Garbage. Do you know what a trained auto mechanic makes compared to a Wendy's burger flipper?

You want somebody to make your choices for you -- but are prepared to whine at the top of your lungs if anyone tells you you'll never be a brain surgeon. Liberal model. Blame someone else -- always. Listen to your guidance counselor. The world needs ditch diggers, too. The pay ain't so bad.

 

I agree about getting rid of the art, music, P.E., etc, these are all hobbies and if someone is truly interested in them they will be involved with it naturally.

We did this in Arizona and I liked it a lot better than having a really long summer break. As far as a longer school day, probably a good idea but we need to be teaching smart and not just having longer days to fit more crap in.

My idea has always been to use K-12 education to primarily teach people to read, write, basic math skills up to geometry, trig, algebra, etc, kinda like what it's supposed to do now just better. My main gripe is with the University system though, it's designed to suck as much money out of people as possible and many of the classes you take are worthless to your career. If our college system was setup like military schools where they teach you exactly what you need to know for a specific job and they get it done in less than a year.

 

Being that eduaction has more to do with the emphases your parents put on it as opposed to how well the state runs it America is failing. Thats why people from third world countries with chalk board tablets and dirt floors blow us away. Americans dont repsect their education because its for the most part free and they feel entitled to it. Furthermore, when they fail and become poor they believe that the system is rigged and they are entitled to the money of thoes who did well in school and earned a life for themselves. Want to improve education? Get the government out of it!

 

Our government education system is horrible. Our private sector education is excellent. We have some of the best colleges in the world here. Having a degree matters.

 

I think College helps give a person some breadth. I think it helps a person grow.

But a person poorly educated in the elementary, middle and high school.... is no better after graduating college.

I worked with two college graduates that didn't know when our country was founded and didn't know what country we broke away from.

Too me that was extremely telling. College isn't a "Vo-Tech" to learn a specific skill...its supposed to round out and further an education. But if two college students don't know the basics of their history.....then they both got ripped off.

Both of those college students were productive....but not because of college. That may have helped them get the job...but I'm thinking thats it.

 

there is no "we", just individuals.

 

Yeah, that is the rumor.

However, I have worked for some people who, despite having received a degree from reasonably prestigious university, can not write a single sentence without massive spelling and grammatical errors.

Finally, at a well-lubricated Christmas party, I asked one guy like this, who constantly talked about his fraternity party times, how ever passed his classes.

He actually boasted that he never had to do a paper - he just bought them all. Doing actual work "was for suckers like you!".

There are thousands of sites online to buy reports, term papers, and any other writing. We can assume they have a good supply of customers who are not so "educated".

 

The tragedy is that America knows what is required to produce an educated population, but won't implement it. That way lies disaster.

 

I think you are right on. The time to educate is early on. In college you only remember what you are really interested in. Other classes you forget as soon as the final is over. Unless it's something you have to use like how to write professional letters. But proper researching and sstudy habits should be learned early in life. Otherwise you just pay someone to help you cheat through college.

 

I guess I should add that if the ealry childhood teachers up to high school don't do their jobs then mostly people will not be as productive as they can once they become adults. College degree or not.

 

What the hell are you talking about? The state mandates the bare minium educational standards. If your local schools are not living up to your standards then there are medthods for counter acting this. You can join the school board, or vote in a Super Intendent who supports your values.

I don't understand your concerns. We have a 7 to 8 hour school day. We need English, math, science, social studies, and recess/gym and art, and health. By the time you finish elementary school the vast majority of people are on their way to becoming capable readers.

That is nice idea but not something likely to happen unless you find a novel way to fund it.

We already have those programs. In Virginia we have programs for the academically gifted from elementary through middle school. We also have advanced/honors classes starting in middle school. There are also AP classes available in high school and governor's school that allows one to graduate high school with an associates degree.

 

We have to find some kind of way to make it work.

 

I am not talking about minimal standards, which are something that can and should be mandated but about the non-academic programs that are often mandated by either the federal or state governments. You seem to not be aware of all the non-academic mandates that come down to school districts each year. I happen to know about them because one of my jobs when I was working was to find the funding for those programs. My main job at the time was the implimentation of the elementary science program for an entire school district. That entailed working with principals and teachers in nine elementary schools, four middle schools and two kindergarten centers. I know for a fact that it is impossible to adequately teach the academic subjects within the time constraints of the average school day.

No, the vast majority of those who finish elementary school are not that far on their way to becoming capable readers. The majority read below grade level. If you check with your local school district, you will find that most classes have at least four reading groups, one of which is above grade level, one of which is on grade level and two of which are below grade level. That is one of the reasons your average newspaper is written on about a fifth grade level. If you don't believe me you can run a Flesch Reading Level Scale. Type a few paragraphs from your local newspaper and see what grade level it is written on.

Parents are more than willing to fund academics. What they usually balk at funding are the 'fluff' programs. Funding the academic education of children is a win-win proposition. A better educated citizenry in a town makes that town more attractive to prospective employers and businesses and that increases the tax base.

Good for Virginia. There are also gifted and talented programs available in some schools in New York State but they are not mandated. Such programs are available only at the discretion of the local school district. I am talking about trackng all students, not just the top ten percent. Tracking would benefit those in the middle academically as well as those at the lower end of the continuum since each class would be taught at the level of difficulty best suited to its students.

I know all about Advanced Placement and College Credit High School courses. All four of my children took those classes and my youngest too enough so that he entered Cornelll University as an incoming Sophomore directly from High School. While those classes are great, they benefit only the academically gifted. Those who are not as academically able are often left to flounder in homogenous classrooms in which teaching is directed toward some imaginary midpoint or toward the lowest common denominator.

I spent more than thirty years as an educator during which time I saw the educational system change for the worse. While there are a few exemplary schools in the nation, the majority are failing in their mission and the blame for this failure lies mainly with the government.

 

I went to a state university, and frankly it was a joke. Half the course I was required to take for my majors had nothing to do with anything and required less work then anything I took in highschool. Requirements like having Race, gender and ethnic study courses are laughable. All we did in those classes when I did show up was talk about stereotypes and how they were bad, how its wrong to treat people differently based on skin color or sex. You know basic common sense. Yet they charged me about $600 a semester to take these joke classes. Sad thing is I showed up on test and quiz days and got straight A's because the tests were all common sense "True or False, its against the law to commit crimes against someone based on the color of their skin" Yes thats an actual question from one of my tests... My teacher even asked me to run an after class study group because I did so well... I don't even understand how people didn't get A's in these classes.

I qualified for college credit English in highschool senior year. I didn't take it because I didn't want to pay extra and wasn't sure it would transfer to where I went to college. My neighbor took it and he had to write a 4 page paper every week. I did nothing. Then when I got to college I thought (*)(*)(*)(*) I will have to write a lot... wrong I had to write 3, 2 page papers in each of the 2 english classes I was required to take. And they were all opinion papers. Talk about a joke.

I also worked for the university in IT. I was required to go to offices all over campus and fix computer and printer problems. You wouldn't believe the crap I saw. I know someone who got paid over 50k a year and did nothing but read books and play solitaire, in fact I got yelled at by her when I didn't respond to her ticket to fix her computer quick because she was "bored" and wanted to surf the web.

Government intrusion has ruined schooling. I spent more time drinking, flirting and doing dumb stuff then I did in classes and I still graduated with over a 3.0. I thought college was supposed to be challenging and a great learning experience, all I learned is that doing shots of Wild Turkey before every mixer I order through the night = a bad night.

Of course thats all my own experiences and to be honest I have always been one of those (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)s who saw something written on the chalkboard I remembered it an never had to study to get good grades. But anyone with a decent IQ can graduate with a degree from state run universities.

 

I agree with you. Most people who ARE smart enough to go to college do well. But we know that because of the lack of early ed most students are NOT college material even if they got A's in HS. SO then you have a class full of illiterate people from the get go. I think that is why so many people drop out is they are not really your PEERS when they go to college. EVerything is not equal.

 

How is your plan feasible? We are already facing massive budget cuts in education. Now you want to add more classes to the situation. My high school classes divided into four groups, remedial, regular, honors, and AP. By focusing on the middle, would you not bring the focus off those behind and in front, who need the attention to excel to their greatest potential.

The only difference between a regular student and an honors student is work ethic. I took almost all honors classes in high/middle school with the same people. We talk about it and the only reason we chose not to take AP courses was that we knew they would entail more work.

No, what you want is a drastic fundamental change to our educational system. I agree that there needs to be change, however, that change requires some amount of time to implement.

 

Wah, wah, wah.

"We need more money. It's for the kids."

Yeah, right.

We've been getting that Big Lie for decades now. Decades. And what have we gotten for the massive amount of taxpayer dollars HURLED at education?
Zippo. Brainwashing. Leftist propaganda. Stop it already.

"In 1950, we spent (in 1989 dollars) $1,333 per student. In 1989 we spent $4931. As John Silber, the President of Boston University, has written, 'It is troubling that this nearly fourfold increase in real spending has brought no improvement. It is scandalous that it has not prevented substantial decline.' "

Embracing a socialist-globalist worldview that opposes free enterprise and representative government, the new, outcome-based national curriculum is precisely what the Father of Progressive Education foresaw. In 1928, Professor John Dewey of the Teachers’ College at Columbia University identified public education’s political function—that being “to construct communist society.” The next year Dewey added, “We are in for some kind of socialism, call it by whatever name we please.” - John Dewey, a Fabian Socialist, introduced a new pedagogy – “progressive education,” with us today.

“When school children start paying union dues, that 's when I'll start representing the interests of school children.” – Albert Shanker, President of the American Federation of Teachers

 

There's a difference between mandatory public education through high school than voluntarily entering college, even if it's a public institution. Problem is, just like every thing in America, American capitalism and laziness has devalued a lot of "degrees". Nowadays you can get a "degree" in your pajamas in a year and half for under $10k. Because every one thinks a degree makes you more employable. But if every one has a degree, than simple supply and demand makes the degree weaker.

There is a HUGE demand though for privately educated / specialized degree students. So there is still a separation between where you get your degree. But as Bernanke puts it, the unemployment rate for college graduates is only 5%. So there is a clear benefit from getting a degree. But if you go to a public school and get a business or communications degree, you are not going to find it very easy to get a job.

 

Let's see... wouldn't this thread title qualify as a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Proof you can lead a horse to school, but you can't make him learn.