Are You For Sanctions Against China For Currency Manipulation?

Sophistry. There's no such thing as "our" jobs. A job is not something that is owned, and therefore cannot be stolen. As for taking US dollars, what do you think they do with them? Money isn't wealth, so by taking money, they aren't taking wealth, but are, in fact, increasing wealth here in the US. The real problem with China taking dollars is that they lend them back to the US government so it can finance deficit spending, indebting your children and grandchildren to support the welfare/warfare state. But who's fault is that? It's not China's.

 

How many small businesses could you start with a billion dollars? How many jobs could you create? Look at our trade deficit. By the end of this day about billion dollars is going to GONE from our economy. And you say this isn't a problem?

 

hmm, I'm not sure I see the problem. If all those dollars are gone from our economy why does it matter? now the rest of our dollars will just be slightly more valuable than before. right?

 

yes, if they graduate from some (*)(*)(*)(*)ty college with (*)(*)(*)(*)ty grade. don't expect them to find job soon. i know many people who graduate from regular university with engineer degree has no trouble to find a job. its easy to find jobs if that person has the skills or graduate from half decent college with good grade, especially in eingineer, med, and other fields. I won't say every single one will find jobs, but majority of them has no problem to find jobs.

 

That usually isn't a problem if you're working for a smaller company.

 

You mean the part about making it very hard to hire Americans in general, and illegal create jobs paying wages even close the what others are happy to have?

That is certainly a part of it. However I'm not sure I'd say it's entirely the cause, or that minimum wages don't have a valid place when unemployment is low.

Rather we have a problem, sactions against China isn't going to help, protectionsism in general is innefficient, that was more a proposal for what we could do.

As Ron Paul would point out, our currency is not gold backed.

This, to a degree, is awesome. Because unlike gold those dollars aren't just "gone". Rather they spin the printing machines a few times and hey! look! More dollars!

Ken has a point with the debt side of things though, but that's another discussion.

Hmmm well, the very bottom should be motivated to not be the bottom. Our problems are deeper than that.

However the question is what to do. I'm highly doubtful sanctions against China are going to help.

 

It is rude to say that most Americans are stupid!!


We don't have to do anything. We trade with China because it benefits us. Do you understand what currency manipulation is? Do you understand the process by which they manipulate their currency?


Just to educate you a little, and doing such education over the internet is incredibly difficult, but I will try. China manipulates their currency, which makes their goods cheaper. That helps us, because we get cheaper goods, but that is only the most basic level of the analysis. We can go a bit deeper. The process they use to manipulate their currency, is to go on the forex market and sell lots of Renmibi, and buy lots of dollars. This process decreases the value of the Renmibi, but increases the value of the dollar. So on top of us getting cheaper goods, them buying lots of our dollars, makes our dollars more valuable, which similarly allows us to buy more stuff. What you are advocating for is to make it so that we no longer got cheaper goods, but that our dollar would not only have to buy more expensive goods, but we would have to do it with less valuable dollars. The only people who would possibly benefit from this scheme are unemployed people. So 30 million counting unemployed people and people out of the workplace? The other few hundred million people would be hurt terribly by this process. On top of that, it would create enmity towards our greatest economic and military threat in the world. Basically your idea is about as bad an idea, as there is. You should hang your head in shame for ever advocating such idiocy.

 

the purpose of trade is not to "get money moving." the purpose of trade is to make the trading parties each better off.

 

I don't understand, where do those dollars go? If they are no good to China, which must find a use for them in "our" economy, why would they take them?

 

A couple of copy and paste items.

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The U.S. goods trade deficit with China was $273.1 billion in 2010, a 20.4% increase ($46.2 billion) over 2009. The U.S. goods trade deficit with China accounted for 43% of the overall U.S. goods trade deficit in 2010.

http://www.ustr.gov/countries-regions/china

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The 2010 National Trade Estimate (NTE) released on March 31 (2010) by the Office of the United States Trade Representative explains how the Chinese government kept out American products. Although the report ignored China's currency manipulations, which raise the cost of all American goods and services in China by somewhere between 25-40%, it still found plenty to talk about. Currency exchange rate manipulation is only one of the many ways that the Chinese government keeps out American products. The report focused upon the Chinese government's expert use of tariff and non-tariff barriers.

Tariffs

The Chinese government imposes high tariffs upon many American products. The report states:

China still maintains high duties on some products that compete with sensitive domestic industries. For example, the tariff on large motorcycles is 30 percent. Likewise, most video, digital video, and audio recorders and players still face duties of approximately 30 percent. Raisins face duties of 35 percent. (p. 60)

Selective Use of VAT

According to the report, China makes selective use of its Value-Added Tax to keep out American phosphate fertilizer:

In 2001, China began exempting all phosphate fertilizers except diammonium phosphate (DAP) from the VAT. DAP, a product that the United States exports to China, competes with other phosphate fertilizers produced in China, particularly monoammonium phosphate. (p. 60)

Procurement Directives

The report points out that China makes use of procurement directives to keep out American telecommunication equipment:

There have been continuing reports of the Ministry of Industry and Information Technology (MIIT) and China Telecom adopting policies to discourage the use of imported components or equipment. For example, MIIT has reportedly still not rescinded an internal circular issued in 1998 instructing telecommunications companies to buy components and equipment from domestic sources. (p. 60)

QIPs to Keep Out Agricultural Goods

The report points out that the Chinese government uses Quarantine Inspection Permits (QIPs) to keep out American agricultural products, causing costly delays while they sit on the docks:

China’s inspection and quarantine agency, the General Administration of Quality Supervision, Inspection and Quarantine (AQSIQ), and MOFCOM have imposed inspection-related requirements that have led to restrictions on imports of many U.S. agricultural goods....

Because of the commercial necessity to contract for commodity shipments when prices are low, combined with the inherent delays in having QIPs issued, many cargos of products such as soybeans, meat, and poultry arrive in Chinese ports without QIPs, creating delays in discharge and resulting in demurrage bills for Chinese purchasers. In addition, traders report that shipments often are closely scrutinized and are at risk for disapproval if they are considered too large in quantity.(pp. 63-64)

Restricting Market Access to Services.

America has a wide variety of financial and insurance services that American companies could market in China, but the Chinese government simply restricts market access. The report states:

China imposes restrictions in a number of services sectors that prevent or discourage foreign suppliers from gaining or further expanding market access. (p.70)

Keeping out Genuine Materials while they are Pirated

American DVD movies and PC games are quite popular in China. However, American companies rarely get any sales. The report states:

An exacerbating factor contributing to China’s poor IPR protection has been China’s maintenance of restrictions on the right to import and distribute legitimate copyright-intensive products, such as theatrical films, DVDs, music, books, newspapers, and journals. These restrictions impose burdens on legitimate, IPR-protected goods and delay their introduction into the market. These burdens and delays faced by legitimate products create advantages for infringing products and help to ensure that those infringing products continue to dominate markets within China. (p. 71)

Demanding American R&D and Patents

The report briefly mentions China's most recent escalation, its November requirement that American corporations move their R&D and patents to China:

In order to qualify as “indigenous” innovation under the accreditation system, and therefore be entitled to procurement preferences, a product’s intellectual property must originally be registered in China. (p. 69)

In short, the United States government is letting the Chinese government practice mercantilism, the strategy of maximizing exports and minimizing imports. We freely receive Chinese imports without requiring reciprocity.

It's time to impose a tariff on Chinese goods proportional to our trade deficit with China. Such a tariff, permitted by a special WTO rule for trade-deficit countries, would finally force the Chinese government be take down its many, many barriers to American goods and services.

Link.... http://www.idealtaxes.com/post3097.shtml

 

On a note of what Woogs mentioned, while I think all around sanctions are simply going to be innefective, targetted tariffs could have at least a short term use. Certainly if China is throwing duties on our stuff.

Intellectual property issues are a whole other discussion.

 

You realize we use strategic tariffs as well, correct?

 

So China creates it's local currency from nothing, buys dollars with it, which are then used to purchase US Treasury debt, which we repay in dollars that we create from nothing, and somehow they are cheating us ?

Wake up nimrods, both governments are stealing our futures through degradation of purchasing power.

 

An item on China's admission to the WTO....

* Safeguard mechanisms: The United States and other WTO members can continue to use special nonmarket economy methodology for measuring dumping in antidumping cases against China for 15 years.

* Under a China-specific safeguard mechanism, the United States and other WTO members can restrain increasing imports from China that disrupt their markets for 12 years.

http://www.chinese-culture.net/html/china_wto.html

The obvious question to me is...why, with the above legitimate tools at our disposal, have we allowed a $273 Billion trade deficit to happen in the first place? This translates directly into jobs lost here. These job losses have as much as anything to do with the sad state of our economy. It's like we're deliberately being sold down the river.

 

This is false logic. China buys Tbills by the billions to keep the price of their own money down. They would be stupid to dump tbills to destroy the dollar simply because it would kill their biggest customer in the world.. As it stands right now.. If the U.S goes down the tubes.. so does China.

As far as them tariffing our exports to China..? lol what are they going to tarrif?.. Jobs? Industry? Raw materials? They already tarrif the crap out of cars and such.

As long as China has the triple advantage of
1. totalitarian controlled low paid workforce.
2. Non existent saftey/environmental regs
3. Manipulated currency

There will be no incentive for jobs to move back to America.. or to even stay in America. Americans dont need a hand out.. all they need is a level playing field. Ending currency manipulation is the first greatly needed step.

 

We are.. its Corporate America thats doing the selling

 

You sound like the mechanic who tries to come up with every explanation as to why a vehicle won't start up. He checks out the battery, looks at the computer and even comes to the conclusion that the wires are burnt out. But if he looked closely enough, he would see the giant gas puddle underneath the car. Unfortunately, he has to rely on a 7 year old boy walking by in order to diagnose the problem. Don't worry, you're not the only person on this forum who has this problem.

 

China can do whatever the hell it wants with it's currency. We sure would be mad if they threatened us over what the Federal Reserve does. Instead of whining that they're not playing fair, we should find a way to beat them at whatever game they want to try playing.

 

they are only playing the game the US Gov wants them to play,
buying our Treasury Debt by printing as much local currency as necessary, then pretend to be shocked that we repay in devalued dollars. Meanwhile we'll pretend to be shocked that they manipulate their currency, just as we manipulate ours.

The people will never catch on that it is a mutual scam to steal the wealth from our respective peoples.

 

It would result in a trade war and so far China has been more successful in penetrating Africa, Central America and Asia than the USA because China's economic relationship with countries only involves making money China does not care about the political system or situation of a country.

While the USA economic relationship always comes with political attachment.

I believe in balance trade, the USA have been instrumental and boosting China's economy unfortunately China has not reciprocated equally.

The USA would want China to open their market more to USA made products such as automotive and maybe military hardware. Everywhere we go in the USA we see MADE IN CHINA but in China it is very rare to see anything made in USA.

One thing that USA and China can do is, the USA will continue to import China made products in exchange China will invest more money in the USA in order to keep a balance cycle..what goes around must come around, the money that China earn from USA has to come back to the USA through investment at the same time the USA will keep that money flowing by importing many China made goods.

 

true, but if its trade war, countries don't often think clearly/logically, it will hurt china, but if its hurting US even more then its fine by them. thats why its called trade wars, NO ONE benefits. its mutual assurance economic destruction MAED.

they can farther tariff stuff, make purchase europe/japan/Skorea car cheaper comapre to buying GM/Ford. also purchase products from alternative source, for example purchase airbus planes instead boeing. There are plenty things china can do to US in a trade war.