Islam is hopeless part II

Response: In other words, after being exposed of the fact that chapter 7 of the Qur'an mentions nothing about 18th century BC, nor can you quote and prove otherwise, you now troll the forum with big letter posts, hoping to distract from your idiotic claim. Sorry, but the fact that every person can pick up the qur'an and see no where in chapter 7 does the words "18th century BC" exist proves how idiotic your logic is, not mine or islam. Stop embarrassing yourself.

 

Response: Yet we once again see you fail to quote anything from the qur'an or sunnah stating that the muslims attacked first, thus creating a rant that proves nothing. Instead, we se that verse 9:13 of the Qur'an clearly states that the non-muslims attacked first, thus proving that the muslims are ordered to attack in self-defense, proving that islam is a peaceful and just religion. Debunked as usual.

 

Text of the koran does that all by itself

[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

[2.193] And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah...

2.216] Fighting is enjoined on you, and h is an object of dislike to you; and it may be that you dislike a thing while it is good for you, and it may be that you love a thing while it is evil for you, and Allah knows, while you do not know.

[2.244] And fight in the way of Allah,...

[2.246] ...May it not be that you would not fight if fighting is ordained for you? They said: And what reason have we that we should not fight in the way of Allah, and we have indeed been compelled to abandon our homes and our children. But when fighting was ordained for them, they turned back, except a few of them, and Allah knows the unjust.

[3.151] We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust.

[3.169] And reckon not those who are killed in Allah's way as dead; nay, they are alive (and) are provided sustenance from their Lord;

[4.74] Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world's life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty reward.

[4.76] Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of the Shaitan. Fight therefore against the friends of the Shaitan; surely the strategy of the Shaitan is weak.

[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

[9.111] Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain;

[9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).

[47.4] So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them,

 

Youve developed a near obsession with your "first" strawman. First the 4 sacred months had to pass, THEN they attack. That occured over 1300 years ago, so really no relevance to doday

??? Does no such thing. That is specifically referring to the idolaters who expelled muhammad from Mecca. A small, insignificant minority of all the Idolaters came into contact with.

[3.151] We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust.


[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, ....

Not because they attacked first but instead because they "disbelieve".

 

I don't think no amount of resources will ever educate you to the facts of reality, please proof me wrong?

This is what Sura 9 was base on
http://www.al-islam.org/message/54.htm

Clearly, Muslims were the aggressors. This is what I believe your concept of self defence in Islam.

Muslim aggression will not stop there, soon their armies will march into Jerusalem, Constantinople, Spain, Eastern Europe and threaten Western Europe.

Islam teaches it is okay to kill, to kill infidels will allow Muslims to paradise, that is why warriors were attracted to Islam very quickly because they now have a reason to kill and ransack Christians. Christians on the other hand teaches mercy, thou shall not kill, turn the other cheek until finally they were given the green light to fight back in the name of penance.

At the end it still does not change anything the facts and history are facts and history, Islam was spread by the sword and the Quran originated from heretical Christian sects that is why it is full of errors, that is why you can't differentiate what is self defence and what is not.

 

Response: The qur'an also states:

1. There is no compulsion in religion (2:256)

2. Muslims are prohibited to fight those who incline to peace (8:61)

3. The non-muslims attacked the muslims first (9:13)

So once again, you've done nothing but confirm tht islam is a religion of peace. For not a single verse that you presented states for muslims to attack first and that verse 9:13 states that it was the non-muslims who atacked first. Thus the violent verses that you provided all relate to self-defense. And when we consider that muslims are prohibited to fight those who incline to peace (8:61) and that there is no compulsion in religion (2:256), the message of peace becomes even more clear. So thanks again for helping to prove that islam is a peaceful and just religion, while it is your ideology that is degrading and violebt, for trying to make what is clearly peaceful appear to be violent.

 

Response: And once again, we see you fail to quote from the qur'an or sunnah anything that teaches unjust acts of violence, thus once again proving nothing. We further see you fail to provide any source that says a muslim army went to South Asia or the East of Africa where most muslims live, thus proving that islam was not spread by the sword. Instead, we see from non-muslim sources that:

1. Muslims ruled Spain for 800 years and during the whole reign, they lived side by side with christians and other religions

2. Muslims ruled India for 1000 years and during the whole reign, they lived side by side with thousands of Hindus and other religions.

3. Muslims ruled the middleeast, particularly arab countries, for 1400 years, and today as we speak, there are over 10,000 coptic christians from Arab countries.

Thus we see that muslims had the manpower to wipeout all non-muslims, yet they did not. So your whole argument of islam being spread by the sword fails, proven by your own non-islamic sources.

More facts:

1. The majority of muslims in the world live in Southeast Asia, yet no muslim army ever went there.

2. The majority of muslims live in Indonesia, yet no muslim army ever went there and is predominately Hindu, despite hundreds of years of muslim rule.

3. The east coast of Africa was ruled by muslims, yet no muslim army ever went there.

So once again, we can see from non-islamic sources itself that the spread of islam was not by the sword, for the majority of muslims reside in countries in which no muslim army ever went. Debunked as usual.

Now let's look at the facts of non-muslims:

1. Pope Urban II was a christian who started the crusades according to non-muslim sources.

2. In 1493, when Columbus returned to the Hispaniola, he quickly implemented policies of slavery and mass extermination of the Taino population of the Caribbean. Within three years, five million were dead. Las Casas, the primary historian of the Columbian era, writes of many accounts of the horrors that the Spanish colonists inflicted upon the indigenous population: hanging them en mass, hacking their children into pieces to be used as dog feed, and other horrid cruelties.

3. By conservative estimates, the population of the United states prior to European contact was greater than 12 million. Four centuries later, the count was reduced by 95% to 237 thousand.

4. the Native Americans were intentionally exposed to smallpox by Europeans.

5. The slaves brought from Africa to America were predominately muslims, and were not only treated brutally, but were forced to learn christianity.

The list goes on and on. So what we can conclude from non-islamic sources itself and just the history on the foundation of America that it was the non-muslims who were driven by imperialism, that it was non-muslims that were spreading their ideologies by the sword, gun, and other weapons they could put their hands on, while it was the muslims who spread through peaceful means, by becoming victorious in battle over the imperial acts of non-muslims.

Debunked as usual.

 

Response: Once again, we still see you fail to quote a verse from the Qur'an stating that the muslims attacked first, thus debunking yourself again. Instead, you quote verses that says that muslims attacked, while verse 9:13 says that non-muslims attacked first, thus proving that muslims attacked in defense of the agression of non-muslims. Thanks for proving my point yet again and demonstrating that islam is a peaceful and just religion, while it is your ideology that is degrading and violent for trying to make what is clearly peaceful appear to be violent.

 

Why should I care?...the ones I know are ordinary law abiding citizens of Iraq, Turkey, Syria, and Iran...none of which support violence against America, or terrorism. The last thing they seem to interested is imposing Islam on the western world.

The thing about Islam, is that they didn't allow me to convert as a Sunni, which would have made the marriage to my wife much easier, because they knew I was only doing it for marriage purposes.

Terrorists recruit......Muslims not so much.

 

OMG You actually want the Quran to tell you what date Ibrahim lived?

Is the Quran the words of Allah or a history book?

Ibn Kathir, who was considered one of the greater Islamic scholars to have ever lived stated that the order of prophets was:

Adam
Enoch/Edhrees
Noah/Nuh
Hud
Salih
Abraham/Ibrahim
Ishmael/Ismail
Isaac/Ishak
Jacob/Yaqoub
Lot/Lut
Shu’ayb
Joseph/Yusuf
Job
Dhul-kifl
Jonah/Yunus
Musa
AAron
Ezekiel
Elisha
Samuel
David
Solomon
Zachariah/Zakariya
John the Baptist/Yahya
Jesus/Eesa
Muhammad

This is stated according to "Stories of the Prophets" by ibn kathir and translated by sheikh muhammad gemeiah. office of the grand imam, sheikh, al- azhar. edited by aelfwine acelas mischler.

No respectable Islamic scholar Disagrees with what Ibn Kathir said.

Ibrahim is also a prophet recognized by the jews, and no Islamic scholar ever said that the Ibrahim of Islam was different from the Abraham the jews recognise.

When historians traced Ibrahim's birth to the 18th century BC, not a single Islamic and jewish scholar objected to what the historians said, because it conforms to their own beliefs, and what the quran and Torah said.

That is why Islamic scholars made this tree:


Yet, you are telling me that everything that muslim scholars did through out the years was wrong simply because you don't like it?

You obviously have a lot to learn about Islam, so I suggest you either start reading and stop writing, or leave Islam before you dishonor everything that Islamic scholars ever told us, and believe me, they would be very angry if they knew that someone who claims to be a muslim decided that what they said was wrong.

 

Response: Another failed strawman, for we still see nothing from the Qur'an stating the words "18th century BC" as you claimed. Thus you've done nothing but continue to expose your own idiocy. Again, stop embarrassing yourself.

 

It preaches on detestation for foreigners.
I can't believe somebody intelligent would be loyal for such stupid religion that treats women like dogs.
The only thing we should take out of this religion is the evident unity,the continueous persistence at the same idea without any arguement but anything else just keeps me disgusted.

 

Gentlemen , read my siggy below regarding the past .

"The difference between God and historians is that the former cannot change the past."


i.e. ONLY Historians can change the past.'''

.....

 

Some of the Muslims in Saudii Arabiia, Pakistan, Yemen, Afghanistan, and the other conservative Muslim countries do treat women like dogs. But most of the liberal/moderate Muslim world does not (Turkey, Balkans, Lebanon, Syria, Kurdistan, etc).

 

Is that so ? Have you ever had any social contact with devout muslims ?
Ever befriended a muslim , been to his house , met his family , seen how he treats (mistreats ) his womenfolk ? wife/daughters/sisters etc. ) ?

Be brave , open your mind and GO LEARN befores continuing embarrassing yourself.


....

 

You truly are ignorant and know nothing of Islam.

You think that all that was said and done to study Islam was false simply because it was not literally stated by the Quran?

You decided that the order of prophets clearly stated in the Quran was not enough, and that it should have said when and where they lived? Then Why do muslims listen to what Islamic scholars say if the Quran has all the answers?

Why do you pray 5 times a day?
Who told you how to pray?
The Quran?

Tell me why do you pray the way you do right now?

I feel like I'm talking to my 12 y/o cousin.

 

Response: Only in the eyes of the delusional. Thanks for clarifying.

 

Following is also for Allegiance :

-----------------------------

It looks like muslims are not the only ones who treat their women "like dogs " that is according to the following :


"
Fast Facts on Domestic Violence

Domestic violence is the leading cause of injury to women between the ages of 15 and 44 in the United States, more than car accidents, muggings, and rapes combined. ("Violence Against Women, A Majority Staff Report," Committee on the Judiciary, United States Senate, 102nd Congress, October 1992, p.3.)

There are 1,500 shelters for battered women in the United States. There are 3,800 animal shelters. (Schneider, 1990).

Three to four million women in the United States are beaten in their homes each year by their husbands, ex-husbands, or male lovers. ("Women and Violence," Hearings before the U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee, August 29 and December 11, 1990, Senate Hearing 101-939, pt. 1, p. 12.)

One woman is beaten by her husband or partner every 15 seconds in the United States. (Uniform Crime Reports, Federal Bureau of Investigation, 1991).

One in every four women will experience domestic violence in her lifetime. (Tjaden, Patricia & Thoennes, Nancy. National Institute of Justice and the Centers of Disease Control and Prevention, “Extent, Nature and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence: Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey,” 2000; Sara Glazer, "Violence, Against Women" CO Researcher, Congressional Quarterly, Inc., Volume 3, Number 8, February, 1993, p. 171; The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and The National Institute of Justice, Extent, Nature, and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence, July 2000; The Commonwealth Fund, Health Concerns Across a Woman’s Lifespan: 1998 Survey of Women’s Health, 1999).

In 1992, the American Medical Association reported that as many as 1 in 3 women will be assaulted by a domestic partner in her lifetime -- 4 million in any given year. ("When Violence Hits Home." Time. June 4, 1994).

An estimated 1.3 million women are victims of physical assault by an intimate partner each year. (Costs of Intimate Partner Violence Against Women in the United States. 2003. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, National Centers for Injury Prevention and Control. Atlanta, GA.)

85% of domestic violence victims are women. (Bureau of Justice Statistics Crime Data Brief, Intimate Partner Violence, 1993-2001, February 2003)

Police report that between 40% and 60% of the calls they receive, especially on the night shift, are domestic violence disputes. (Carrillo, Roxann "Violence Against Women: An Obstacle to Development," Human Development Report, 1990)

Police are more likely to respond within 5 minutes if an offender is a stranger than if an offender is known to a female victim. (Ronet Bachman, Ph.D. "Violence Against Women: A National Crime Victimization Survey Report." U.S. Department of Justice Bureau of Justice and Statistics. January 1994, p. 9.)

Battering occurs among people of all races, ages, socio-economic classes, religious affiliations, occupations, and educational backgrounds.

A battering incident is rarely an isolated event.

Battering tends to increase and become more violent over time.Many batterers learned violent behavior growing up in an abusive family.

25% - 45% of all women who are battered are battered during pregnancy.

Domestic violence does not end immediately with separation. Over 70% of the women injured in domestic violence cases are injured after separation.

1 in 12 women and 1 in 45 men have been stalked in their lifetime. (Tjaden, Patricia & Thoennes, Nancy. (199. “Stalking in America.” National Institute for Justice)

One in 6 women and 1 in 33 men have experienced an attempted or completed rape. (U.S. Department of Justice, “Prevalence, Incidence, and Consequences of Violence Against Women,” November 199

Nearly 7.8 million women have been raped by an intimate partner at some point in their lives. (Costs of Intimate Partner Violence Against Women in the United States. 2003. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, National Centers for Injury Prevention and Control. Atlanta, GA.)

READ AND LEARN MORE ABT DOMESTIC VIOLENCE , WOMEN + DOGS IN AMERICA.

http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/domviol/facts.htm


Now , what was it Jesus is supposed to have said abt those without sin casting the first stone ?

CHEERS.


....

 

Islam is a religion. A written doctrine. Muslims are people. The problem is the doctrine. And most pronounced in those countries where large segments of the population of muslims follow a strict, literal interpretation of that doctrine. Thus all the criticism of the doctrine. No amount of moderate muslims who dont strictly adhere to the doctrine will refute criticism of the doctrine.

 

You're mostly right, Islam is a religion, Muslims subscribe to Islam, Muslims are Turks, Arabs, some Kurds, Arabs, Persians, Pacific Islanders, Africans, and many middle asians.

The problem is interpretation of the doctrine. If Muslims were bound by Islam to abuse women, animals, rape, pilage, and so forth...Istanbul, Damascus and Beirut would have that going on.

The ones who are the bad people...are the uneducated back water conservative fundementalists, and they just don't know any better, and missed out on the world outside because they're hicks.

The people who are the problem are dangerous because they embrace tradition in an ever progressive world that's passing them by, not because they're Muslims

 

Your point? I think any religion, doctrine, philosophy, beliefs, views or opinions that advocate ill treatment of women should be criticized. ESPECIALLY if that advocacy leads to others to treat women badly. And you
would have to be ideologically blind to not recognize that much of what we in the west would view as mistreatment of women in for instance, Saudi Arabia, is in fact due to their Islamic doctrine. A strict, literal reading of that doctrine.

 

You mean like was demonstrated when you flunked the Islamization Quiz with a ZERO ?

 

And even if you knew some Muslims personally well enough to have been to their homes, are you there ALL the time ? Do you have a camera set up in their bedroom that can be scanned 24/7 to see if Mr. Muslim is or isn't beating his wife. The fact is YOU DON'T KNOW.

We do know one thing. Those robe-like outfits that Muslim women wear sure look like effective covers for cuts and bruises. Hmmmm.

 

I tend to agree with you on the "hick" thing, but at the same time, the hicks are getting their tradition from the Koran, and it's keeping them mired in their uncivilized barbarity. As for the better educated Muslims, it is often hard to ascertain how much rape, beating, and other abuse goes on if/when you have a culture that doesn't regard these things even as wrong, let alone a crime. Consequently, these things don't get reported, an thus, statistics are difficult to complile. Only in countries like Pakistan which is very fundamental, do we get a more open view to it all.

 

According to your stats : "An estimated 1.3 million women are victims of physical assault by an intimate partner each year. (Costs of Intimate Partner Violence Against Women in the United States. 2003. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, National Centers for Injury Prevention and Control. Atlanta, GA.)"

OK, well according to a 2011 Pew Research Center report, the population of Muslim adults in America was 2.6 million. So, with half of that population being women, that would be 1.3 million women. Well, there's your "estimated 1.3 million women victims of physical assault in America. They're all Muslims.

Note how the numbers fit like jig saw puzzle pieces. Coincidence ? Pretty exact-fitting for a coincidence.

http://features.pewforum.org/muslim-population/