a lot of the misunderstandings about Christianity come from a lack of wisdom about human nature

The issue is, there's a lot of atheists that simply do not recognize that, to put the issue bluntly.

This is a little bit difficult to put into words, because we are talking a matter of degrees. Everyone would agree that humans are not perfect, but it's a different matter to hold that humans are fundamentally flawed in nature and deserving of the type of punishment that evil people deserve, or in that same type of category.

Does that make sense to you?

All this argument is asking you to do is to recognize that, if there were a divine judge who meted out justice, most humans would be doomed.

Once you can understand/agree to that, you can understand the Christian theological position better.

 

That is just plain preposterous. Where the HELL did you get THAT crazy idea?

The idea that humans need to be punished for being fundamentally flawed is purely a construct of specific religions.

Surely that is cartoon logic. It is wildly hypothetical in multiple ways.

 

No it's not. I think you're just projecting your personal beliefs onto other people, automatically assuming they think the same as you do.
I see this happen in this forum all the time.

Again, this is totally out of whack. I do not think you're actually being logical here.
Think about this. Think about how the government operates. Think about how you approve of the government operating.

The REAL issue, which you will refuse to recognize, is that government is your God. That's why you will refuse to criticize the government for things that you complain about when it comes to religion.

 

I addressed what YOU think, not what I think. I've never thought your ideas match mine.

This is even more nutty.

What do you mean to imply by suggesting I approve of how our government operates? And, where did you get THAT idea?

Are you suggesting I should be punished for how our government operates???

And, your comment about government being my God - where did THAT come from?

 

I'm just going to be honest with you. I think you're being disingenuous.
Now, I'm not claiming you believe you're being disingenuous, I just think you're fundamentally being dishonest with yourself and being unfair. That you are applying double standards.

All I am claiming is that the Christian version of God is applying the same type of standards that you yourself would be applying if you were in charge of how government is handled.

Yet you are complaining about that, and acting as if the Christian version of God would be an unbelievably cruel God.

I think you just do not realize this.

 

A standard of your religion is to favor government forcing rape and incest victims to carry their embryos to term. Are you suggesting I would favor that?

And, you have NOT explained your ideas concerning why I should be punished for our government.

I have NOT been critical of your God. I've been critical of how you apply your religious beliefs to others.

Plus, you really need to think through what you accuse me of believing.

 

I think you are trying to selectively shift the topic.

Why don't we focus on the core of this first, and then we can look at all the little details like that.

I really think you're putting on a false pretense here. You are refusing to examine your own position and how it is inconsistent.

My point is, if someone exactly like you were made Emperor, and were omniscient, you would need someone to save yourself from someone like that.

You would face severe punishment, because your nature is imperfect and you would do bad things.

Even you ultimately know this, if you use logic and genuinely self-examine things.

But I suspect you refuse to genuinely self-examine things. Instead you're just trying to look for any excuse to prove me wrong.

 

That would entirely depend on the basis of the judgement. I'd suggest that the vast, vast majority of people have good intentions and do the best they can so I'm personally not sure many would be worthy of eternal damnation. Also, I'm not sure there is any consistent idea across the entirety of Christianity of what the basis for that judgement actually is or should be.

I honestly don't think there is a lots of misunderstanding of what Christians propose in principle and more a lack of understanding of how that could even work. I find a lot of the fundamental concepts logically flawed or contradictory.

 

Universal basis of judgement, your basis of judgement, if you were put into that position, of being a divine god.

That's what I'm trying to get you to see. If you were completely truthful and thought about it long enough, you would condemn yourself, in a manner of speaking.

 

You wanted to slide by, suggesting we would probably agree. I showed evidence that is false.

And, my example is NOT a "detail". That is a significant difference that is a serious issue today, as our thoroughly religious Supreme Court has decided to rule on this without even having a hearing - even though abortion has long been considered constitutional. Do you know the meaning of stare decisis?

You have NOT shown ANY inconsistency in what I've stated. It is YOU who have made WILD assumptions concerning me. You say my god is the government, that I'm guilty of double standards and all of other crap that you can not support. I'll thank you for stopping that kind of attack.

Again, this idea that I should be punished for being a human is something I see as absolutely unjustifiable.

 

But my ideas of right and wrong, good and bad, aren't (entirely) consistent with the Biblical ones (or all the widely different Christian ones). You suggest most humans would be doomed but I disagree so we must be applying significantly different measures of "justice".

Of course, part of the problem is I don't see the point in this judgement and punishment only after a persons death, especially given that what would lead to it isn't made entirely clear (hence much of the confusion).

 

So you judge the Creator with a brain He created. All you really have is a choice.

 

I find your judgement of God as being unjustified similar to you walking into a lab of Atomic Scientists and discounting their knowledge due to the socks they are wearing.[/QUOTE]

 

I don't judge God. Humans don't judge god, for crying out loud.

Frankly, if someone wants to claim that god will punish them for being human I absolutely should let that slide.

The issue I most cared about is the notion that the Christian view of ethics is something we can all agree on, as that is a root of the idea that we can use the bible instead of the constitution - which is exactly what our religious supreme court is doing!

 

Okay, you want to talk about that? Let's talk about that.

Government severely punishes people for "being human" all the time.
Humans make mistakes. Mistakes get punished.

Have you never felt vengeful when certain people do something you really do not like?

 

I believe the Constitution and it's composers had very much of the Bible in mind. That aside God doesn't really punish anyone. He allows them to go their own way (which is punishment in comparison) maybe you just feel entitled to heaven? No need for Salvation??

 

No, the government punishes for specific laws that get transgressed.

And, there is significant built in leaway for the case that it was indeed an accident.

Furthermore, our entire system of justice is oriented toward bringing people back into productive society.

(Of course, we do a totally crap job of that, but that is a different discussion.)

Our system is so oriented in that way that if you don't get arrested within a specified period of time, you will not have that crime hanging over your head anymore. This is true for almost every crime on the books.

In fact, if you owe me money and I don't pursue it within a specified period, you are most likely no longer indebted to me as far as the law is concerned.

As for vengence, our system of justice is set up to combat vengence.

 

Wow! Sounds a lot like God...


Yeah, it really seems like you're not being reasonable or honest with yourself on this.

 

But not when the accident was ultimately still that person's fault.

You don't seriously believe that line, do you?

Anyway, guess what? God's system of justice is also oriented towards trying to bring people back. Of course either system will probably not be successful much of the time.

You're dishing out all these things that do not even support your argument.

That's not true at all. The concept of vengeance, or "justice" as some might call it, is inherent in the system.

I think you just totally misunderstand things.

 

The authors of our constitution separated religion and state.

And, that should be NO surprise. First of all, they had huge experience with the devestating problems that arise when the state thinks it can be guided by religion. Our colonies were populated by many who actually uprooted themselves and came here because of the problems of the state having religious opinion. Thirdly, there is no chance that colonials could have decided on a religious view to be held by government on anything at all. They were religious oddballs, those who could not live with the protestantism or catholicism found in Europe, including UK.

I'm sure I've wronged people along the way. And, given the knowledge and opportunity I'd do soemthing about that. But, the idea that I should apologize for being a human is something very different.

But, NOBODY thinks that is going to get me to some magical place where dead people go to enjoy themselves.

 

You are confusing "accident" and "fault". I agree that any single event could have elements of both, but there is no major point to be made on that. Elements of "accident" reduce the view on culpabililty and punishment.

I don't just believe it - it is absolutely true. Even those who receive life sentences get out of prison and work to form new lives among us.

And, surely you are aware of statutes of limitation, which are echoed in similar law on debt.

Well, actually your message is that when I die YOUR god will send me to everlasting hell because I didn't propertly beg forgiveness from YOUR god for the fact that I'm human.

I really don't see that as being similar.

No. Vengence and justice are absolutely NOT the same thing. Justice is dispassionate and proportionaate. Vengence is not limited by justice nor is it necessarily oriented to compensating for damages.

 

You can entertain the belief there is no God....no accountability. You can even try and insult me by implying my faith is in "magic". Not my job to convince you. I just don't agree with your brand of "love". The Authors of our Constitution were of many denominations. They had differences. Certainly they had differences with the Anglican Church of England. They put those differences aside to pursue the Liberty we were called to in Christ. When you refer to "religion" you refer to denominational pride. Governments use denominations for control. A wise man once told me, "the demons of hell cannot touch the Word of God....but the traditions of men can make it of non effect". Maybe you are indifferent to the Word, or Jesus, or God but that does not change the fact men of God wrote the Constitution and they refused the idea that government would promote a denomination for control as they did in England. The top of the Washington Monument proclaims "Praise be to God".

 

I believe our system of justice was basically "to remove dangers from society". Not necessarily to council them. That is left to the Church and society.

 

So, let's assume that Trump lied sometime in his life. I don't think I really need to bring up his record on lies.

Did God punish him for that?

 

No, everybody in prison gets out. They aren't removed from society. Getting a year in the pokey isn't "removal from society".

I agree we don't do much of a job on the rest of it. We more or less assume that people will be less likely to transgress in a specific way if they notice that those who do get caught and spend time.

But, they get out. They are still full citizens with every right intact. They are free to work for their personal benefit.