I'm aware that many of you believe that the rejection of Jesus Christ's sacrifice and God's ideology leads to eternal pain should post-mortem consciousness exist. I am curious about the Christian take on the possibility of this predicament. Mainly regarding a question that I, and many others have asked: Why would God allow people he knows will go to Hell to be born? There have been many answers. Most state that God allows it due to wanting us to have free will. Though it would seem to me that this makes free will a detriment to humans. I feel that only God would benefit from free will. Due to the fact He would not have to fear consequences. It does not seem to me that the freedom to do what you wish is favorable if there are negative consequences to certain things. Although this is only hypothetical, one scenario that came to mind, truly making the idea of Hell in Christianity seem unconscionable to me, has to do with God's omniscience: "If God himself told you that your child will spend eternity in Hell because of their choice to reject God's laws, that there was absolutely no chance of their salvation, would you still choose to conceive that child? Is it right for you to do so?" As I thought this over, the idea of God allowing people he knows will go to Hell to be born sounded horrifying. I have several other questions I hope we can discuss over time I this thread. Thanks for your time.
If the Christian God created this hell place and then told Dante about it he is an extremely nasty creature. If it did not then Christians are dupes who are using fictional stories to gain control of people. Either way, it really makes no sense to worry about this place...Think about it. Christians will not be there to complain, accuse, or make you guilty of being yourself which actually sounds pretty cool.
Heaven sounds as boring as hell too (excuse the pun) Far too many rules and full of Jehovah's witnesses. I'll take the risk of ending up in hell and use my own moral judgement for my few short years on Earth.
The key to the answer to your posting is “Though it would seem to me that this makes free will a detriment to humans”. Hence it not only seems to be a detriment, but can kill and definitely is a detriment. Take the garden for example, here A&E are given many trees to choose from but one. But all are within reach. The Lord God chose the trees that would be in the garden, the garden its self and what tree should not be eaten from. Now if A&E trusted, believed (placed their faith) in the Word of God (the commandment given), considering how long they survived even in sin, they would have eventual have eaten of the Tree of Life which was all so within their reach until they were cast out, and we would have received the Life they originally had. But instead they placed their faith in their own judgements of what was good for them, and the result was death. Separation from the place from which they were given to live and be. So, when you hear and read of the constant justifications for “free will” they are only trying to justify their faith in their own judgement of what is good, to themselves and others. If you read the conversation in the bible of the serpent, what he was doing was giving Eve ample reason in her own judgement, to trust her own judgement, and not God’s. But that won’t fly in the Presence of God, will it? Because deep down every soul knows that it is God’s Judgment of what is good is what is good for His creation no exceptions. So, the old “judgement day” is good for who? And doesn’t work out so well for who’s wants and desires? hence the gospel message of by Grace through Faith, by believing the liar, death and separation from God ensued and rules the world as a result of said lies invited in by the world (then A&E). now Jesus the Son of God, comes into the world via the flesh as any other man, and all that other men have to do is, believe, trust, place their faith in Him and they shall be saved, restored to the Life A&E originally had.
Good luck getting the Christian Borg to answer as individual free thinkers. Their indoctrinated programmed answer as usual will be that God does not send these masses to hell, they send themselves. Hitler never sent the Jews to the gas chambers, they sent themselves for being born israeli's.
If God's will is always fulfilled and god wills men to be saved then none will go to hell. If god's will is always fulfilled and some go to hell then he must not care for all men. If Jesus died for all men's sins but Jesus is alive then he did not die for all mans sins. If Adam and Eve would gain knowledge of good and evil by eating the fruit then they wouldn't have known they did wrong until after they ate the fruit. If eating this fruit causes humanity to know the difference between good and evil then it is difficult to tell that we have that ability because what is good and what is evil are very subjective and varies by culture.
Thank you for your response DPMartin! The main concern I and several others have is that God is the one who gave humans the ability to decide to follow our own judgement. It appears that this ability is more of a benefit to Him than us. Which has often made me question the idea of God's hypothetical love for us. It appears that He is more concerned about His status as a creator and ruler, as well as the narrative of time, than He is about the well being of his creations. I'm sorry to say that I strongly have to disagree that every soul knows God's judgement is necessarily best for His creations. Much of what God in the Bible declares as good is unfavorable to many humans. Our wants and desires can lead to negative results, but it is only due to the limitations of how God configured our reality. I know this will sound like a bizarre example, but consider if God simply granted every person a "lucid dream" afterlife. Everyone could do as they pleased. There would be no negative repercussions because the other inhabitants of an individual's afterlife would only mimic sentient beings. They would have no consciousness of their own. Every real person would be able to live out have his or her desires free of fear. Anyway, regarding Jesus dying on the cross it would appear that it was all unnecessary. God did not create sin or evil, but it was God who allowed sin to exist. Had he erased Lucifer from existence, or simply created an obedient other in his place, Adam and Eve would never have been tricked into following their own judgement. I wonder if the purpose for allowing sin was intentional, though again, it is to God's benefit and not the benefit of us. I feel, if God exists as according to Christianity, he is not as selfless as some believers claim.
I know that answer well. Which is why I mentioned the scenario about you the reader, knowing before you conceive your child, that he or she is going to Hell because of their future decisions. I don't feel all Christians are brainwashed. Many are just misguided, but well meaning. Though there are of course undesirables mixed in, but that goes for any group of human beings. As for your example regarding Hitler, it would be more accurate to say (if Hitler created Germans) "Hitler didn't send Jews to the gas chambers, he simply cursed Germans with having the ability to choose to be born Jews, but said that was forbidden. If they went to the gas chambers, it was their own fault for deciding to be Jews. Hitler is not culpable in any way despite granting Germans the ability to choose death in the first place."
Is god just at all? Let me explain say I'm a mob boss and decide your to pay me protection I'd go over and talk to you, have some toughs toss over some tables of your business and look mean and give you a choice pay me or bad things will happen with a clear message and evidence of said violence. I may be a mean bastard but give you a choice using knowledge and you can check things out with other businesses who pay up my fair fee and nothing happens bad even other crimes which I put the word out your restaurant or store is under my protection and mess with them I'll break your kneecaps or something. God if he is just and wants me to choose should show me hell, show me heaven, give me a simple clear book on what to do to make him happy and some general other benefits while in this life and make my choices clear and then place it in my court and not hide behind all the crap and make the choices so obtuse as to not be a choice. I as the mob boss seems to have a lot more morals.
Hell is apparently necessary for Christians to continue to believe and obey the strictures of the Church. It was invented back when people really believed in demons and Satan and all the rest of it. Given a choice between an eternal life in Heaven and an eternal life in Hell I think the average person would happily swallow what the Church offered. It was basically a threat. Now if there is no afterlife - and I doubt there is - then the threat of Hell or the promise of Heaven has no threat or appeal. That would never do for the Church. The neat thing about Christian theology is that good minds can go to work providing solutions to such difficult questions as free will and determinism, the existence of God and just about anything else you care to throw into the mix.
According to the biblical fairy tale there are three places the dead go: 1) hell; 2) the sea; 3) death. The good news is that all three are just temporary holding cells until Judgment Day when all of the inmates make bail and are resurrected. Then, depending upon the person's record, he might get into the golden cube called New Jerusalem or he might get tossed into the lake of fire along with death and hell. The seas will vanish. But the kicker is that the Gentiles, Christians and heathens alike, could end up as slaves to the Jews (according to the Old Testament and the Jewish Babylonian Talmud). According to the Islamic version you die and then get resurrected on Judgment Day. If you have enough points you move on into a paradise where you get all kinds of goodies. The cute boys end up in paradise as the guys' playthings. But most of the women end up in hell. You don't want to end up in the Islamic hell because it makes the biblical lake of fire look like a 5 star resort. So even if a person ends up in the biblical hell, and most people will, (even Jesus went to hell), it's only temporary. You might even end up in the golden cube. But if you end up in the Islamic hell you will have a very rough eternity.
Who says God knows who's going to hell? On this testing ground called Earth he gives us free will to do as we please while he sits back to watch how we do- "Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life.." (James 1:12) Remember when God tested Abraham by ordering him to kill his son? As Abraham raised the knife, God said- “Do not lay a hand on the boy...Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.” (Genesis 22:12) See, God said "now I know", which shows he didn't know before..
Once you've accepted the concept of an omnipotent deity (as does this back row Presbyterian), it logically follows that the aforementioned Supreme Being knows ahead of time who is going where (and when). "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."
The passage says that it was an angel who spoke to the crazy old coot (Genesis 22:12 & Genesis 22:15). The angel passed himself as the God character.
Nah mate, the angel was simply passing on a messaag. The word "angel" means "messenger" from the ancient Latin 'angelus' and ancient Greek 'angelos', and they can take human form- "Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels unawares" (Hebrews 13:2) Remember, God is invisible, Jesus said "God is spirit"(John 4:24) so he uses angels as go-betweens to give messages to the human race..
So a guy sitting on a rock yells out to a superstitious twit that he's an angel and has a message from God and the twit believes it.
Hell was not real. The Catholic Church created it to coerce the followers of Norse mythology to convert. The concept is based on Hel, the Norse goddess of the dead. Basically, all of the dead who did not join the battle in Val Halla went to Hel. Going to Hel was a frightening concept to he Viking, since they all longed to go to Val Halla and fight forever. So, it was easy to use their own religion to convince them to convert.
