After a person has gone to heaven, can they sin?

Most conservative Christians will tell you that there can be no sin in heaven. Jesus died for our sins, and the only way those sins can be forgiven is if we accept this "free gift" offered. Otherwise, we burn in hell. However, there are two problems with this view. It assumes a contradictory stance on libertarian free will, and it also does not accord with heaven being a place of perfection.

Free will is seen as paramount to the traditional story. The thinking goes, if we did not have free will, then we would all be robots, and who wants to be a robot? That isn't true love! Love involves an element of choice.

Free will is also seen as why people do bad things. We can all be more moral, if we just try harder and believe in Jesus; yet, it is also said we have an inherently sinful nature that does not even allow us NOT to sin. It isn't even theoretically possible. So it is entirely inconsistent to claim morals are about choices on one hand, and at the same time say part of being human is to sin. If God created us, it would be immoral to hold us responsible for EVERY immoral action we do, since we have no choice in the matter. There can be some choice, as some are more moral than others, but original sin cannot be escaped. It is the anchor dragging down the ship.

What about heaven? It is claimed by conservative Christians that sin cannot be in heaven, and that is why not everyone can go. The magical process of saying a simple prayer that is "free" somehow erases all past and future transgressions, and allows one to have eternal bliss (claiming there is a "judgment" where one has to answer for all the bad things done doesn't negate the fact the person still gets eternal bliss!). Putting aside the questionable nature of this process, there is a more serious problem, and it again involves free will.

This is a fundamental problem with the conservative Christian worldview. In 1st Corinthians, Paul claims, "If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man." What does Paul mean by "heavenly man?"

Paul seems to be suggesting here that human nature must fundamentally change. It transforms into something more advanced when people go to heaven. Is it incapable of sin? If so, then free will is completely abolished when one goes to heaven, and the Christian insistence on free will becomes obsolete as a way to explain evil, because God is perfectly willing to fundamentally alter man after he goes to heaven, so why not before? There would be no morally sufficient reason for God refusing doing so. God must in fact want robots that MUST love him according to this line of reasoning. Free will can no longer be used as a defense of evil.

On the other hand, if the changed nature of man still allows him to sin, then heaven is no longer a place of perfection, for it allows immorality to occur. Therefore, there is a dilemma here. Either free will is completely abolished when the saved go to heaven, or heaven is not a place of perfection.

For those of you who are more liberal, and don't believe in a fiery eternal (*)(*)(*)(*)ation for unbelievers like myself, the heaven problem wouldn't apply to you.

 

The short answer is no ... not if you wish to remain in the prescence of God anyway.

 

Glad to see you again my friend . It's been awhile!

 

If God were bound by your perception of 'logic' then, yes, you would be right. However, I sort of see God as being far more logical than any man could imagine (if in fact 'logic' even applies to God). So, without either of us being able to prove that God is bound to any form of logic (especially a man-made version of logic), then your questions and your concerns are fleeting fantasies that will more than likely never be answered in a KNOWING manner.

 

Glad to see you again too incorporeal. Just to make sure we are clear, are you claiming that the Lord works in mysterious ways that defy human comprehension?

 

"After a person has gone to heaven, can they sin?"

nobody has free will in heaven do they? wouldn't it be hard to make everyone happy if someone had freewill to do something some didn't want them to do

someone told me god even makes you forget your loved ones that got left behind

 

I don't make claims. Secondly, the words that I wrote are the words that I wrote. If you desire to place your own private interpretation on those words, then by all means, have fun. Just keep in mind, that your interpretation may or may not coincide with the intent behind the words that I wrote.

BTW: Thanks for the welcome back comment. I took a little 6 day cruise.

 

Since that view claims no conformance with "libertarian free will", your objection is nonsensical.

No, love in this context means forbearing to buy into the illusion (at least as it is experienced by sinners) of choice.

 

This is dippy... How do you sin AFTER death?

 

Oh where to? Did you enjoy yourself?

 

William Lane Craig and Alvin Plantinga both claim it is libertarian free will, and then conservative Christians use that argument to answer objections about evil. I'm not sure what you are getting that.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_...#CITEREFPetersonHaskerReichenbachBasinger1991. Could you please be more specific?

However, even if my objection is nonsensical, heaven seems to take away free will completely under the conservative Christian interpretation, which is what I am attacking.

If you are using a different theology than the one I am arguing against, I'd like to hear it.

 

There is no everlasting life! Says the "Christian".

To the OP: No, that side of us is shedded away for eternity. Only pureness exists in heaven. This means liberals will not be there! Hallelujah

 

No it does not appear that they do, not in my understanding anyway.

 

That is part of the problem I am looking into in this thread. Do you have a possible answer for this conundrum?

 

Yes, thereby taking away our free will to choose or not to choose to be moral and love God.

 

Christians have Eternal life as soon as athey are saved.. before death and after.. That's the promise of Christ's sacrifice.. Victory over spiritual death.

But, you can't SIN after death..

The stupidity gets pretty deep..

 

No. We make that decision while on Earth. Everyone in heaven WANTS to be there.

 

So I choose to love God and be moral on earth right; but then afterwards when I get to heaven it's no longer a choice at all. It's like me falling in love with a woman (going to heaven), and then once I fall in love, she puts a spell on me and forces me to love her forever, taking away my ability to ever do otherwise.

 

Well, it certainly was not one of the streams or rivers of OKlahoma. But yes, I had a wonderful time, thank you. The Gihon river.

 

Heaven is a state of humanity in the universe.

thousands of years of telephone and false doctorine has made it percieved supernatural.

heaven is all around and within us RIGHT NOW.

mankind can bring, and perserve ourselves closer to heaven by existing in harmony with god(nature)

sins are selfish actions against the nature that which nourishes and sustains us leading to destruction of our environment and a hell on earth.

thinking heaven is supernaturak is dangerous to the existance of humanity and is a sin itself.

 

I don't think heaven is supernatural.

Are there ANY anti-Christians out there who actually understand the faith?

 

Interesting POV. I'll think about this more.

 

The kingdom of heaven is all around us.

jesus said that if you make the kingdom of heaven in the sky, then the birds above you.

(gospel according to thomas)

(supressed by the council of nicea)

 

Swell. Show me where Jesus agreed and we'll have something to talk about.

If by that you mean the illusory ability to choose between good and evil, it certainly does.

I don't do theology, I just tell the truth as I see it.

 

Jesus didn't believe in free will?

There is no choice?

I'm asking because you appear to be operating under a different framework than the conservative Christianity I was arguing against.