Amazing: I had never seen Republicans in such disarray

I see it a little differently. Republicans are losing control of their central message. Mueller did that. Mueller kicked the pins out from under the FOX/Limbugh/Hannity diatribe by presenting an incredibly detailed and competent expose of what, when, and how it all went down. Mueller is an impeccable source and all the remaining thinking Republicans know it. Therefore, whatever fragile message they had before the Mueller Report has been shattered.

Here's the real danger sign for Republicans and many of them have picked up on it. In a recent Town Hall meeting, a woman exclaimed, she had no idea the Mueller Report didn't exonerate Trump because she only watched FOX and other right wing sources. After this, a few Democratic candidates and others within the party have finally picked up on the importance of getting the Mueller message out. Once this entire episode is revealed to the public - the reaction is likely to be nuclear. The probable reaction? WE'VE BEEN LIED TO!

The thought of Mueller appearing in a few hours of public testimony terrifies the Republicans. Their only option now is to attack the messenger. Given Mueller's sterling reputation, this is not likely to play well, even with Republicans. The vision of Jim Jordan making a complete ass of himself on national TV will leave voters gasping. Therefore the main task for Democrats is to get their message straight (it isn't yet) and go public in a big way. Once that's done, a lot of deserving people are going down hard. That, most assuredly, includes the president.

 

Just to point out an obvious contradiction to your ideology, but do not conservatives pretend that liberals and progressives are somehow brainwashed. Yet here you are, bragging about Republican unity. How do you think that happens?

 

Some sillies don't get that county land does not vote. People do. And in those red in the rural areas many have died who voted for Trump and many have changed their mind. 2020 is going to be bad for the GOP electorally.

And why not?

They have earned it.

 

Hillary by a landslide.

 

KeepALookingBackwards

jest sayin

 

Yes. Problem they're having is that that's happening almost by the hour now. They keep changing the message.

Yes! Exactly! They went too far. And this is why it's important for Mueller to go to Congress.

But this is what I mean. In order to keep their gullible followers properly uninformed, they need a single consistent message. They aren't used to having Rush give one explanation, Hannity a different one, and Fox and Friends a third. And right now, they can't their messaging straight. So at the same time that a some of them are still happy with Mueller because he "exonerated Trump", others are attack the prosecutor because he didn't exonerate Trump. So they don't know what to do. And I actually don't recall this ever happening to the right-wing media before. No matter how nonsensical the story was, they all would stick to it.

Yeah. And I think this is the moment to hit them hard.

 

Trump is begging to be impeached.

If we had had confidence that the president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so. Mueller said that Wednesday.

On Thursday morning, Trump raged, providing an incoherent rant during which he called an American destroyer a "boat" and said that the courts would not allow impeachment. Nearly every sentence was a lie.

On Thursday night, Trump, as is his custom, decided to change the subject. To divert attention away from a damaging controversy, he created a more damaging controversy.

Sandy Shanks said: ↑
The Dow Jones Industrial Average posted its fifth consecutive weekly decline, its longest since 2011.

The Dow is down 1,000 points since Trump announced his 25% tariff on Chinese goods and threatened a 25% tariff on another 325 billion more.

Sandy Shanks said: ↑
"We're not ready to make a deal."

Trump said that yesterday. Today, the Dow lost 238 points.

Sandy Shanks said: ↑
The Dow is down another 260 points today.

Sandy Shanks said: ↑
The Dow is down about 1500 points since that tweet. Millions of Americans have lost millions of dollars in retirement savings. Farmers are being seriously hurt, and Trump wants to bail them out with another $16B on top of the $12B they have already received. Huge retailers like Walmart are raising prices because of the tariffs. Market analysts are concerned about inflation. Inflation causes less demand, causing less employment, which causes recession.

Sandy Shanks said: ↑
"Mr. President, you are doing a terrific job," Vladimir Putin, Russian president.

So, what does Trump do? On Thursday he threatened more tariffs, of course, this time on Mexico. He threatened to punish Mexico with tariffs until it restrains the flow of migrants across the southwestern border. Only Trump can explain the relationship between our immigration woes and tariffs/trade.

Come to think of it, no, I don't think he can. He just wanted to change the subject, and, in doing so, threatened his signature trade deal, the USMCA.

The Dow lost another 355 points today. Americans lost more of their retirement savings while paying higher prices at the market while bailing out farmers again to the tune of $16B on top of the $12B they have already received.

Some Trump Republicans have made the obligatory criticism of Trump's incredibly ludicrous announcement but they will do nothing to rein in the out-of-control President.

Putting this in perspective, currently, there are about 100,000 to 105,000 impoverished people making illegal border crossings a month. Most Americans could care less. Illegal immigration ranks ninth in the concerns Americans have, mostly Trump fans, I wager. It is a hot button issue for them.

To solve this problem our President wants to penalize 327 million people living in the U.S. and another 130 million people living in Mexico along with every auto manufacturer and every major retail outfit like Walmart and Costco.

Only a President yearning for impeachment would do the things Trump has done this week.

That would be the worst mistake Democrats could make. The idea is to remove Trump from the White House. An innocent ruling in a Senate trial would not do that.

If Democrats need more motivation, picture Trump as a martyr, a sympathetic victim of Democratic overreach, and add another four years to Trump's longevity.

 

Probably nothing with Mueller. He did his job, and we really don't need him.

Maybe you aren't following things the same way republicans are, but there is a reason why Mueller gave that cryptic statement to the press, and why Comey did much the same thing.

There's an IG report coming out soon, and Barr is investigating the whole spy thing, and who is responsible for spying on a Presidential campaign based upon unverified intelligence (the steele dossier).

Mueller is trying to bow out by saying that he has nothing further to add to his report (he does) and Comey is in a world of **** because he signed off on that unverified intel in order to get a fisa warrant.

The party is just starting, and it's going to be a wild one.

 

Didn't Mueller say that people are innocent until proven guilty? Didn't he also say that he didn't find enough evidence to say that there was collusion with the Russian government?

What are you basing your hope upon?

 

I really don't think that Trump wants to be impeached. I think he knows that if he's impeached he could be subpoenaed and forced to answer questions on live TV under oath. And that terrifies him, regardless of whether he is removed or not. He's not going to look like a martyr. He's going to look like the lying crook that he is. There are probably thousands, if not millions like that lady who came out yesterday on the news who had only watched right-wing news and was convinced that Mueller had completely exonerated Trump. And was surprised to hear Mueller's statement Wednesday saying that he did not

All those things he is doing are intended to try to change the subject. They are terrible for the country, but they please his core supporters. And in his twisted mind, he believes that they are going to .... I don't know... somehow protect him from being removed.... or jailed...

On the other hand, I don't want the Democratic Party to be the one that will go down in history as the one that killed Impeachment as and oversight tool. If we don't impeach Trump... who will ever get impeached?

 

No. You're not understanding. What will the right do as far as messaging.

 

I'm sure this is really important to you, but quite honestly, it's not important.

 

There is a strange game being played out now. Republicans beg for Congress to impeach Trump. Why? Are they playing a daring hand of poker? Is it apart of an elaborate bluff? Or a full house? Meanwhile, Democrats, led by their Speaker, seem either intimidated by the Republican bid or see it as a bluff and want to "call." The opportunities for miscalculation on both sides is manifest. I think the truth is that there are a lot at the table, each with a dubious hand. For what it's worth, here's my take -

The parties are divided down the middle. The old line Republican Fathers know impeachment, regardless of outcome is bad news for their party and their boy. They're bluffing. They do not want this to go forward. The hotheads think they have a royal flush because the Senate will never convict. They don't realize that the public will. Their message changes daily depending on what they ate for lunch.

Savvy Democrats, and the Speaker is savvy, know the Senate will never convict and that impeachment is a risky, empty gesture. They remember the Clinton debacle and what happened to the GOP. They're looking for Door Three. The rambunctious minority in the Democratic caucus wants full steam ahead on impeachment because they believe public reaction to the whole Trump affair will turn the tide their way. That is far from certain.

FOX and Hannity are stirring the pot for Trump & Company and want to amplify the game to "dare you." Pelosi is standing pat for that Door Three. Pelosi holds the Trump Card (ain't that a hoot) and she's not ready to play it. She owns the game.

 

It is. But it's more important to you. You just haven't realized it. And that's what I love about it.

 

Trump is innocent in a court of law.

In the court of public opinion, the solid majority knows he is a criminal that he follows the criminal way.

It’s only a matter of time now until he leaves office or dies in it. Either way, it is over for him in terms of whether he should be indicted and tried.

That is his only future.

 

He would fight that all the way to the Supreme Court. With friendly judges on the Court, I don't hink he would ever appear before an impeachment hearing.

I would hope to be wrong about that. Besides, he would only plead the Fifth and suddenly acquire a very faulty memory. He is a talented liar.

 

Like many Democrats, you seem to be implying that impeachment is an end onto itself, a Constitution duty.

It is not. Impeachment is a tool to remove the President from office. Removing the President is the is goal of impeachment, not impeachment itself.

Moreover, the impeachment charges must not only be overwhelming, but also bipartisan. That is another factor Democrats forget. If Trump isn't convicted in the Republican held Senate, it is all just a waste of time that will severely damage the Democratic Party.

In 1998, the Republicans tried to impeach Clinton. They failed in the Senate. Clinton suddenly became more popular, and the GOP suffered a huge defeat in the next election. The Speaker, Newt Gingrich, was forced out of his post. Two months later, he was forced out of the House.

Do you really want to make Trump a martyr, a victim of Democratic overreach, and victor in the 2020 election?

We know better, but the general public does not.

 

Neither the Supreme Court nor any Court have any say on the matter.

The House of Representatives shall chuse their Speaker and other Officers; and shall have the sole Power of Impeachment.
(U.S. Constitution, Article I, section 2, clause 5)​

There is no 5th Amendment protection in Impeachment. It's a political process. Not a criminal one.

This is exactly why we need impeachment. Even if the President is not removed, we will know the facts.

 

Trump's problem is that he isn't a politician, or the distinction between a political or criminal process would be moot.

If you want to see a true professional at work, Loretta Lynch's testimony to congress is sheer genius. She answered direct questions with answers to questions nobody asked, she spoke for as long as she could successfully running out the clock with each republican she encountered, and managed to say absolutely nothing for hours.

Trump is not that kind of guy, so what he will probably do is read a statement, and then tell them that he has better things to do, and leave Giuliani to answer their questions.

 

You are assuming that after hearing all the testimony and all the evidence, the Senate will not remove the President. I don't know that for a fact. I don't trust them, but they must be allowed to take a vote. Trump committed, not only high crimes and misdemeanors, but actual crimes. Let's see which Senators actually place their partisanship before their patriotism.

Newt Gingrich was force out because he was himself impeached. GOP didn't suffer a huge defeat. They left a few seats, but they kept control of Congress. And they won the Presidency in 2000. I've heard this before, but I don't what defeat they're talking about. And all this despite the fact that Clinton was immensely popular. Trump is not.

I don't know what "overreach". Impeachment is in the Constitution. And once all this is displayed on TV for everybody to see, there is no "martyr". It will enrage his cult. But that's it! They are already 100% behind him.

I think they will, when they start learning the facts.

 

On impeachment, I know that. You said, "he could be subpoenaed and forced to answer questions on live TV under oath." I replied that he would fight that subpoena all the way to the Supreme Court.

I meant that in a colloquial sense. In the U.S. no American, not even Trump, can be forced to testify against himself. Mostly, he will just have a bad memory, and Congress won't be able to do a thing about it.

NO! The possibility that vindication would cause Trump to become more popular, a martyr caused by Democratic overreach and another four years of Trump is far too heavy a price to pay for simply knowing all the facts.

Think about that. Could it happen? Sure it could. It already has ... in 1998. Hell, I, we, loved through it.

 

Oh...Not to worry. Once impeachment proceedings are declared, he'll learn the difference pretty quickly as he's placed in handcuffs by the Sergeant at Arms

 

That is an excellent assumption to make. Trump Republicans have not reined him in yet. They have done nothing to control Trump. Have you looked at the stock market lately? That disaster is directly caused by Trump. See: http://politicalforum.com/index.php...ot-want-to-know-about.556807/#post-1070631940

His administration tried to start a war with Iran. They let Trump rag on about a fellow Senator, McCain. I could go on. They do nothing. They want to end the controversy surrounding Russia's interference. They claim there is nothing there.

Ask the Democratic leadership. They feel the same way I do. A small minority wants to impeach, and that includes Dems who merely want to start impeachment proceedings, not actually impeach.

Trump wants to be impeached because he knows he will vindicated by the Senate. At this point it is his only chance.

Yes, they did, in 1998. They didn't get control of Congress for unrelated reasons, but they gained seats in the House and Senate.

The Supreme Court made that decision, not the voters. Don't go there.

 

Oh. I meant subpoenaed for impeachment.

In impeachment, the President can be forced to answer any question. He cannot plead the 5th.

As for "bad memory"... that is where an expert prosecutor like Kamala Harris can shine! Of course, that would be in the Senate. But the House can bring in any prosecutor they want. They set the rules. This is why most Presidents prefer to resign before facing impeachment. But, in the case of Trump, if he resigns... he's going to jail.

Vindication in the face of whom? Trump is a detestable figure. You expose his crimes, and he can only be more detestable.

Sure... this will enrage his cult and fire up white supremacists, but... that's all he'll do. Most will be like that lady in Michigan...

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-...ed-learn-about-key-mueller-report-revelations

Completely different circumstances. Clinton was a popular figure who was accused of something that was his own private business. Trump is an unpopular a$$-h0le who has abused his powers.

I don't even think that Nancy Pelosi is against impeachment now. I think she's waiting to have more information. We're close to learning about Trump's financial crimes. I think she's just waiting for more "substance" beyond just obstruction. And I can understand that. But I don't think impeachment is even avoidable.

 

Allow me to repeat myself. In the U.S. no American, not even Trump, can be forced to testify against himself. Mostly, he will just have a bad memory, and Congress won't be able to do a thing about it.

No prosecutor in the country can do anything about a sudden loss of memory. They can't torture him as much we both would like that to happen.

Agreed, but, if he is declared innocent by the U.S.Senate and they provide the grounds for his innocence, no telling where that will go. Keep in mind, the Republicans have good lawyers, too, and they can play the media as well or better than the Democrats.

I very much want Trump removed from office, but a failed impeachment attempt will not do that and it could propel him to victory in 2020. Trump is losing right now. He is losing in the courts. He is losing in the court of public opinion, 53% disapproval, least popular President in American history, a majority do not want him re-elected. He continues to make unpopular decisions, trade war with China, now a trade war with Mexico, all causing the stock market to plummet as Americans lose their savings while paying more at the market and auto dealership.

I don't want anything to interfere with that losing streak like a failed impeachment attempt causing sympathy. 88 to 90% of Republicans still support Trump -- heaven knows why -- so any election starts with that, followed by generally conservative independents.

Valid point.

I cannot stress this enough. I am not saying Trump should not be impeached. Like I said, I want him removed from office. What I am saying and what 75% of the Dem leadership is saying, is that, if Trump is impeached, the grounds must be overwhelming and bipartisan.

Otherwise, impeachment is simply an exercise in futility that could easily backfire on Democrats.

Trump is in the process of losing this election. Don't discourage him.