Are private schools really better than public schools?

Discussion in 'Education' started by LafayetteBis, Sep 8, 2018.

  1. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    From here: Are private schools really better than public schools? A look at the data.

    Excerpt:
    Why mess with success? Here's why:
    *The difference in the percentages quoted above is minimal - only 13%. Yeah, OK, so "13%" is not so little and, of course, we want "want only the best for our kids".
    *Far too many of us want the best, which is creating both a social and an economic cleavage in society due to the present scheme of financing education - which is outdated. And our kids going to school with kids from the same socioeconomic context is not going to help.
    *Whyzzat? Because it is in our youth that we learn to meet/greet/like-or-dislike the people who surround us on a frequent basis in school. The experience forms long-lasting personal opinions of our societal-context, and, unfortunately, our prejudices as well.

    And so? So this:
    *This is not a monologue against private-school education. Just a word of caution for those who do not want necessarily to educate their children into class-prejudices that can last a lifetime.
    *This socioeconomic context of ours is a non-homogenous blend of peoples and families from very different contexts. We are all still Americans and One Nation. Despite the fact that gross-unfairness exists in terms of Income Disparity throughout the nation, east-and-west as well as north-and-south.
    *Is that unfairness acceptable? Nope. And it is due largely to our educational system which is NOT FREE, GRATIS AND FOR NOTHING at the tertiary-schooling level. As it should be.
    *Whyzat? It happened for the same reason that as America evolved out of the Agricultural Age into the Industrial Age we understood the necessity of assuring a Primary and Secondary Education. (Coming off the farms into better-paying industrial jobs were people who could not even read and write.)
    *Most importantly, Age Change is happening once again. We are exiting the Industrial Age and entering the Information Age, for which knowledge and knowhow become key necessities. Both of those attributes comes from a higher educational level throughout the Tertiary Level - vocational, associates, bachelors, masters, doctorate.
    *And in order to assure that ALL our people have the same opportunity,
    Post-secondary Education should free, gratis and for nothing.

    It is in Europe. I live in France, and I've sent my two kids to university for less than $600 (in euros) per year plus room-'n-board.

    I am thus assured that they have the best chances to make good with their lives. The necessary education is there, the rest is up to their efforts and Lady-Luck.

    Don't our people deserve that same treatment whether they are coming out of high-school or trying to correct an error they made earlier in life ... ?

    PS:
    And here's are two important facts regarding the US -
    *About two-thirds of all those incarcerated in the US do not even have a secondary-school degree!
    *About half the national Discretionary Budget (see
    here) goes to just one department, the DoD. What's more important? Defending a nation that has no presently acute menace-of-war, or educating our youth into obtainable higher-paying jobs? The money should be spent allowing a free Tertiary-Education to all of us who wish to have one.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2018
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  2. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member Donor

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    You are absolutely right. Education should be prioritised over defence in peacetime. How can people expect to find employment without an education?
     
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  3. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There is also the fact that schooling, particularly at the youngest age, is a "social phenomenon". Social because it is part and parcel an act in which the child is introduce to other members of society outside their family. How they behave can have a very important impact upon how they lead their lives.

    Phenomenon because all aspects of our social experience is a relatively new adventure. Particularly when we leave the common social context of secondary-school and start life. Some move on to a Tertiary Education, others simply try to start a career however they can by obtaining a job.

    In fact, that point in our evolution is crucial. The economic data show that those who move on to a higher level degree also earn better livings. So, supposedly, being better off has its social advantages. ("Supposedly, because that point is highly debatable.)

    Moreover, the data shows that nearly two-thirds of penitentiary inmates do not even have a high-school degree. They are dropouts. This is unacceptable, and the penitentiary costs far outweigh (given the numbers) the cost of preventing them from dropping out of high-school.

    I don't think any developed nation is doing a "good job" of recuperating this ... uh, loss. And, often it is the lack of state resources that is the main reason.

    Which is a shame. What's more important? Clearing the roads of snow in winter, or assuring a fresh supply of wholesome water, or perhaps policing the downtown stores? Methinks not. Important yes, but not as important as recuperating a significant number of children who are not "making it" out of high-school with a diploma.

    Moreover, going further to a post-secondary schooling degree is another financial disadvantage for them. That average cost at a state-school in the US is around $12K a year.

    There is no way that their families can afford that sum. So, what's the solution?

    Do as done here in Europe, where I live. A post-secondary education for my kids cost me $600 (per school-year) in tuition fees plus room-'n-board.

    There you are! Now you might want to question why the US spends 54% of its Discretionary Budget (see here) on the DoD and almost zip (6%) on National Education (because that is supposedly a state expenditure) ...
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2018
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  4. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes, I would.

    Look, it is apparent that the states cannot spend enough on a priority public-service like primary/secondary schooling. As soon as the economy dives, it is in public-spending that cities/states foolishly like to cut spending. Especially when teacher salaries are far below where they should be comparative to others.

    One cannot say enough about Uncle Sam's enduring love for the DoD. Except the real truth, which is this: The DoD is certainly necessary in a time of war. But here is no such threat presently on the horizon from any nation on earth. Yes, there are relative imbalances - for instance, China's building of a full-fledged hi-tech navy.

    But so what? That's China's business and largely due to profits from the production they shipped to the US since the early 1990s for us avid consumers* ... !

    *And we didn't expect that to happen. How naive can we get?
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2018
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  5. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member Donor

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    The US has different priorities.
    Education is not ranked highly enough when it comes to spending States'
    money.
     
  6. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    THE INFORMATION AGE

    Like getting rich?

    Too true. But what is happening will change that notion.

    We have, in the current of the past two centuries, spanned three "ages". Up to the birth of the US, there existed the Agricultural Age, where both sustenance and wealth came off property (land and towns/cities) that aristocracies fought one another to accrue.

    In the middle of the 19th century, and just as America was forming itself, the Industrial Age arrived from Europe (from where substantial technological advances had issued). Namely, the mastery of physical power in the form of steam and carbon-based engines. Both propelled the world and they still do.

    The rise of scientific knowledge of the world around us has taught mankind how to harness power both from nature and atoms. But, the BigPush came upon mankind in the middle of the 20th century with the advent of electronic computing, which has literally propelled mankind into the Information Age. (Like it or not!)

    The Goods Producing industries (Mining, Construction, Manufacturing) today employ only 12% of our total workforce. Whilst Services Producing industries account for 80%. (See figures from the BLS here).

    Central to the Services Producing industries is knowhow, of the kind that mainly comes from education and the employment and deployment of "information".

    Which is why I keep harping about its necessity for the US to continue on its economic expansion. Without which the services-industries jobs (that necessitate a significantly higher level of intelligence) will require America to "import" from countries where Tertiary Education is free, gratis and for nothing more and more highly educated individuals.

    Today, about 45% of the workforce has a tertiary-level degree. Which places the US in a higher category of nations. But it isn't the only one in that category. (See here.) And if we do not make post-secondary education as inexpensive as it is in those other countries (almost all of which have very low cost tertiary-education) we are not going to succeed as do other nations. (Which means, in this Global Market-Economy that is upon us, we lose the race.)

    The message is as challenging as that - which is why I am placing it here in the Education Forum ...
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2018
  7. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member Donor

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    You are preaching to the converted here.
     
  8. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

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    Private schools are not really private since they too - at least here in Sweden - have to accommondate to the government's curriculums. Additionally, a private institution competiting against a public one is not really a fair, free market situation. But, I would say that any private institution is always better than the public equivalence.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2018
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  9. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    BRAINS vs BRAWN

    Private means not owned/run by the city/state at the primary- and secondary-school level. The subjects, at this level, are dictated by the state perhaps not specifically but generally whether a school is public or private.

    That changes at the postsecondary education level.

    Regardless of the level, private means that the fee is paid by the parents, regardless of primary, secondary or tertiary level. And, yes, one can indeed measure at comparative levels (in public or private schools) of how well the students master a subject. (Ie. brainwork.)

    Maybe where you live the caption in red quoting you above is true. But, at the high-school level in the US the answer to that question is found here (from WashPo): No, private schools aren’t better at educating kids

    Excerpt:
    Yes, that's going to break a lot of hearts, mine included because I did go to a private school.

    But, I insist on making the same point: The Public School system (primary through doctorate levels) MUST provide an affordable education at all levels to the public.

    Which is self-evident in most of Europe. And not the least bit evident in the US ...

    PS: And why is an education important? Because developed countries are well within the process of leaving the Industrial Age where brawn was a principle quality of any worker for the Information Age where brains are now the primary qualification!
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2018
  10. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    We could absolutely solve all these problems of poor and uneven education, and high incarceration rates. It isn't rocket surgery. All it would take is a complete take-over of congress and the presidency by progressives who are proven to be adamantly against any corporate influence in government, and workers' and people's organizations to force those progressive politicians to do what they said they would.

    So it all comes down to the people and ORGANIZING.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2018
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  11. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member Donor

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    Absolutely!

     
  12. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    There is one major benefit of private schools in many ways they are more flexible I only earned a High School Diploma because the Board of Governors let me apply two years of accounting which I got high B's in for mathematics so I could meet my required four credits they would never have done that in a public school most likely. And my other grades were largely good save Algebra and Geometry which I failed twice. So needed the credits somewhere.

    Also it was safer with good discipline and high standards backed by my parents who took my side but also backed the school so I was expected to do well and do my best. And for me classwork took four times more effort to get the good grades. One accommodation was I could opt out of physical education and take one less credit a semester if I did summer classes spreading the work out.
     
  13. saveliberty

    saveliberty Well-Known Member

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    I went to the local public school, my kids attended the private school here. Without reservation the private school was better academically.
     
  14. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    In a way, I am not pleased to read the above.

    There should be very little difference that "money can buy" in either Education or Health Care. But, America has not yet woken-up to the national imperative that guides the European Union regarding those two key services.

    (Everything is for-sale in America and who gets what simply depends upon the cost and one's salary-level. Aint no way to live by European standards, but there's the fundamental difference between the two - and perhaps the key reason that lifespan in the EU is four years longer than in the US.)

    Too bad for Uncle Sam ... and it's one of the few key-reasons I decided long ago to remain in Europe. But we are only about a 600K* yanks - or so - who have done so ...

    *Of which, and I cannot understand why they are counted, there is the large contingent of military in Germany, and thus (for my purposes) should not be included. (They are all living in a military cocoon that resembles more the US than it does Germany.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2019
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  15. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    All of which reminds me of the movie Jurassic Park inhabited by massively impressive dinasours and other such animals.

    The US needs some "fast modernization" in order to catch-up with Europe, because GDP/head is NOT the most important socioeconomic criteria upon which to measure (or judge) a country's performance.

    Income Disparity is by far more important:
    [​IMG]
     
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  16. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There are also "criteria" posted by many states regarding high-school curriculums.

    Here is a results résumé for the US from a collective OECD study.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2019
  17. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    Yes but religious schools don't have to be government sanctioned and even if they are they can design a curriculum loosely around what the State requires. In New York the Ultra Orthodox schools are fighting the State over their limited focus on education as the State sees it and they are invoking the we have a religious right to educate out children as we see fit and our schools are fine defense. Traditionally courts have sided more with the religious people as long as the education in their communities have an adult life sufficient not to be a burden on the State this backed by several Amish cases where they stop formal schooling at 8th Grade.

    And there are many unlicensed K-12 schools where they don't care what anyone else says, most very strict religious based schools, however the government has no say if the schools and parents don't care in some cases.

    The First Amendment is a powerful protection and the Courts have to generally weigh in on the rights of the parents in the USA, unless the education is so bad its considered grossly incompetent they usually won't step in as in can they read and write, use mathematics to a basic level, study civics, history and science and other subjects to a level to be productive in society its the basic benchmark most court cases use. The religious rights shield many schools if they opt out of certification and licensing. My cousin is a teacher at a school with an associates degree in science at her K-12 school they don't teach evolutionary theory until the senior year in a one week unit. Creationism is the norm K-11. No license and no state interference.

    I can support this State approval means State interference and well that does violate the separation of church and state principle and leave them open to other rules they might find objectionable like hiring known people with alternative sexualities
     
  18. Wildjoker5

    Wildjoker5 Well-Known Member

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    Same way everyone has from the beginning of time? There is some educational levels you should get to, but college is not needed for 90% of the jobs that are out there.
     
  19. Wildjoker5

    Wildjoker5 Well-Known Member

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    The US spends the most per pupil in the world. Try again.
     
  20. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member

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    Then perhaps you simply don't understand the dynamic. The private school option is underpinned on the perception that public options aren't sufficient. Regardless of the fact that public education vastly outspends private educational providers. And the unfortunate truth is that putting your kids in private school doesn't remove the requirement (if you're a property owner) to continue to subsidize the public options. You, in effect, pay for it twice. So all of those ridiculous expenses that the teachers unions and school boards adopt absent consent of the citizens, and local governments who prioritize projects and funds that don't improve the option at the public level continue because they have a built in revenue path that practically guarantees that they can continue providing sub standard services.

    I would point out that in Europe, there are plenty of private educational options for kids. And just like here, it costs the parents who send their kids both costs. It comes down to a discussion about whether better options than government provided services are allowed in the economy or not. Socialism is underpinned by providing the only option. Lest us not forget....
     
  21. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member Donor

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    "And you see other nations out-educating, out-investing, out-innovating us. Not only have the skills needs changed dramatically, but we now have a globally competitive economy, a flat world. It's no longer Iowa versus Indiana versus Montana for jobs, we're competing with India and China and Singapore and everywhere else. That's the world where our kids – my kids – are going to grow up into, and we're never going to go back the opposite direction. It's only going to accelerate."
    https://www.usnews.com/news/the-rep...ricas-schools-arent-working-for-americas-kids
     
  22. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member Donor

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    It's not all about how much money you spend-like health care.
     
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  23. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Bollocks. You've understood nothing.

    Tertiary-education, just like secondary-schooling, should free, gratis and for nothing. Why?

    Because we have long since (20-years) left the Industrial Age and entered the Information Age where the key talent is "knowledge" and not "skill". Until we understand that government funded tertiary-schooling is necessary to assure the truly talented up-market workforce needed today, the longer and more difficult it will be to turn America "around".

    Those without the proper education will suffer most from prolonged unemployment due to their lack of upmarket skills.

    Meaning the consequence socially of a monumental Upper Income Disparity that benefits a tiny, tiny portion of the population - whilst the rest are left to go-to-hell whilst shop-floor jobs are continually automated out of existence* ...

    *Even China - of all places - is beginning to feel the heat generated by the advance of automated manufacturing techniques!
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
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  24. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Religious schooling is indeed an inherent right for those who want it.

    But, religion is not a specific qualification for any school curriculum funded by the state. It is entirely separate and independent.

    And America had better not get complacent about the separation of church and state that was so much sought and wanted by our Founding Fathers. And which throughout history has been a major source of fratricidal wars, discrimination and widespread executions ...
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
  25. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    Well it varies State by State Wisconsin where I attended a private High School was approved and almost all the teachers were licensed the four exceptions the pastors teaching religion, the art teacher, the music teacher and the teacher at large filled in where needed and they argued religious exemption for these under the private school regulations some could be unlicensed.

    But in Alabama the school my cousin works at does in principle follow the State guidelines as far as they can but places the higher demand on the religious rights and the parents said the children to the school but hold the right to see to the children's education and the State won't interfere. They did send people to check the curriculum and the secular teachers had issues but they were getting a good enough of an education to function as an adult maybe better they have many trades programs leading into union apprenticeships for young men. Young women are given ample home economics to be good wives and mothers. But the issue is will the State and Federal Courts interfere with religious schools and intervene even if they are not state approved or less demanding that public schools in curriculum? It's unlikely.

    But in the United States many religious schools take no government money at all so where would they have a right to say what is taught in most cases, unless very bad. The bar in cases where the Amish are considered mostly limited cases make that a low bar 8th grade but the schools they run are considered good quality in the main.
     

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