Atheism V's Theism.

I think to believe in the existence of God is quite rational and logical. I am also willing to debate the matter with atheists, and agnostics.
When debating the existence of God no particular religious beliefs should be brought into the debate, as debating your own particular brand of faith would require your opponent to believe in God in the first place.

If God does not exist then the universe, solar system, gravity animals, plants, and us, are all just chance. The belief in this kind of luck takes great faith and most irrational. The chances of people existing and thinking the way we do today by chance is so improbable it is impossible.
Why do we have moral values?.
Why do we care for one another?.
What is the point of our existence?.
An atheist will tell you we have evolved and developed these things to ensure the continuation of mankind.
What I would like to know is why do we have a desire to have the human race to continue?.
Why do we bother to care for the sick and elderly where does this compassion come from?.
A world without theism would bring about the eventual collapse of society. No person would be able to tell another what os right and what is wrong. Morality would be left to ones own concience, and if someone else committed something that you regarded as wrong, who are you to put your opinion on to them?.

 

You're obviously totally clueless. Let's start there.

 

I would prefer if we debated the topic than just criticise each other.

 

Why when it's obvious that you started this thread with zero clue as to what you were posting? Everything you posted was total bull(*)(*)(*)(*). Nothing you posted made any sense.

 

Tell me which points you would like to discuss. Tell me the parts you believe is bs and we can continue from there.

If I went onto a thread and read something that made no sense I would not even bother to respond to it, I would find another thread to discuss on.

 

The entire premise you made.

We're not here by chance alone which you are no doubt also using to mean random chance. Natural selection is non random for instance.

 

So it is controlled then. I mean if it is not chance, then it is controlled is it not?.

 

Of course it's controlled, through non random selection. If it can't survive and breed then it's not totally random that it doesn't pass its genes on.

It's not totally random and by chance that those who want to breed have children.

 

Let's see.

"If God does not exist then the universe is just chance." On what do you base that statement? You know no more about how a godless universe came about than I do. Maybe it's chance, or maybe it's the manifestation of something inevitable. Lacking any evidence of any kind, how can we make a statement on it's chances or lack thereof?

"The chances of people existing and thinking the way we do today by chance is so improbable it is impossible." On what do you base that statement? How do you work out the odds? Surely, you must have worked out the odds in order to determine that they're below whatever threshold you have chosen to represent impossibility.

"What I would like to know is why do we have a desire to have the human race to continue?" Seems likely that those races which evolved a desire to continue themselves are more likely to continue themselves, does it not?

"Why do we bother to care for the sick and elderly where does this compassion come from?" Not everyone exhibits this compassion. And some of those who do, do it because they would be looked down upon if they did not. It's not a universal trait, so perhaps it's an extension of the general desire to look after those close to us - and for some people that desire does not extend so far.

"A world without theism would bring about the eventual collapse of society. No person would be able to tell another what os right and what is wrong. Morality would be left to ones own concience, and if someone else committed something that you regarded as wrong, who are you to put your opinion on to them?."

No single person should be able to tell another what is right or wrong. But society at large should have that right.

Also, Panzer, I disagree just as strongly as you but the OP isn't insulting us so there's no need to immediately start with that attitude.

 

You are, inevitably, introducing an element of your own faith here, indicated by your capitalisation of the word god and the fact you restrict it to the singular. You are making an argument for some kind of creative and controlling force or forces, not necessarily "God" by any conventional definition.

Nothing is impossible (beyond the literally contradictory). Any specific make-up of the universe is in principal equally unlikely. What makes you think God existing is any more likely than development of the universe by "chance".

Self interest generally. Morality varies hugely from person to person, tending to fit what they've been taught and what they find works for them. If humans had a fundamental morality, we wouldn't need law enforcement.

I don't know. Maybe there isn't one. What would be the point of God's existence?

Not necessarily. An atheist will tell you they don't believe in gods. Why they don't believe that and what else they believe about life and the universe can and will vary significantly.

We have a desire to survive and pro-create because that's what works. Anything that doesn't have those desires will not survive as a species. Survival of the species is a consequence, not an active intent.

How is that any different to what we have now? People who believe in gods create their own different moralities just like everyone else and are demonstrably equally capable of making horrible messes of it. Belief in gods doesn't help you on this point. The existence on gods with an objective morality could, but only if they chose to make it clear to us, which I suggest isn't the case.

 

So if it is controlled then what is controlling it?.
What has set things into order?.

 

Natural selection. It deson't have to be an intelligence to be non random chance.

A gene that increases the chances of survival/breeding will be selected. That's not a roll of the dice. It will be selected because it works. Now stop pretending you don't comprehend just because it doesn't wash with your religious beliefs.

 

Improbable =/ impossible. What are the chances that god just happens to exist? How is that MORE likely?

Not everyone has the same morals. I could explain these things scientifically, but what's the point? These things are not evidence of god.

How is this an argument for god?

What species is going to continue to exist if there is no will to exist? Obvious, beings born with a desire to exist and continue a species will do so, and continue to pass those genes with that desire on to others. Is this a religious discussion or an evolutionary discussion? You say that we shouldn't bring up anyone's particular faith, but you have brought up a specific belief (evolution) which is not even atheism. Whether evolution is true or not is irrelevant to whether or not god exists.

Ok, none of these questions are arguments for god. Presenting problems for society and doubts about evolution is not evidence of god. Don't waste our time.

 

I base it on if the universe was not created it is here by chance. If it was not designed it is through luck it exists. If it was inevitable something must have set the process in motion, what was that something?.
We can make that statement on the basis of it is an either, or scenario there is no 3rd opption. Either the universe and everything in it is by design or it is chance. You cannot say it is chance but it is alos designed otherwise it is not designed. Evidence for intelligent design is all around us, the way nature works the laws of physics, the animals and wildlife, and most especially us.

The odds are astronomical, in theory it is possible. In the same way in theory the right amount of cells and atoms could randomly come together and form a boeing 747.
The way I see it is the first thing must have always been. It also must have been creative in order for anything else to come into existence. We are pretty sure the universe had a begining and it was singular at the begining then it imploded and out from it came everything else. So all of creation that we know of came from a singular entity. Now we must ask ourselves is our solar system and the way each panet revolves around the sun and that earth is the right distance from the sun and the moon to provide life is just chance, or was it intentional. Look how complex we humans are, this to me all is evidence for the existence of God.

I am asking why do we have the desire for our race to continue?, where does that desire come from?.
Also evolution means to evolve it is a progression, what is it we are progressing towards?. If humanity was to continue forever would we evolve for eternity?. In a million years from now would we ourselves have evolved to something that is nearly omnipotetent?. Does evolution stop?.

People tend to have a built in desire to care about other people. Most humans have a built in moral code there is certain things nearly all humans agree on what is right and what is wrong, regardless of faith or culture. Now where does this sense of morality come from?. Also caring for the sick and elderly comes with no benefits it does not help enable the survival of the human race (though I do not know why we care), in fact it could be seen as a hindrance, yet we do it anyway. I think these in built feelings come from God, I think God desires us to seek Him. So He has provided us with tools in order to do so.

A society without God has no foundation. Morality would be only an opinion. What was right one day could be something that would be considered wrong in the future. Majority is not always right, society used to think that slavery should be permitted. Going by your analogy then the slave trade was not a bad thing then because it was osmething society agreed on. Morality cannot just be decided by government without some sort of inclusion of theism, it has already been tried numerous times and has failed. Communism, nazism, dictatorships, have all failed, because they have no morasl foundation. Any governement that is still either controlled by any of these regimes may appear to be working such as China, have in fact committed atrocities against it's own people.

 

Natural selection does not come about until after the appearance of the species. So, before the appearance of the species, there could be no natural selection. The random activity being spoken of is the appearance of any animated life on this little green and blue orb... and of course, consideration of the appearance of the little green and blue orb must be given also.

 

Well a force that has created everything and set everything in motion. Would be to me a definition of God. What exactly would your definition be?.

I am saying that the development of the universe by chance is so improbable it is impossible. What are the chances of a monkey given an infinite amount of time chained to a keyboard reproducing the complete works of Shakespeare?. Even given an infinite amout of time it would not happen, at least not without intervention.
A universe that was completely chaotic and no life in it is more likely than the one we have which is orderd and complex which appears to be designed. This universe works it is designed to support life. So the fact we are having this debate is evidence of the existence of God.

Humans do mostly have basis of morality it is just that some numb themslves to it. How can caring for someone who is terminally ill, or helping someone who was in an accident be beneficial to us?. Self interest does not explain it.

The existence of God provides us with a reason, it also would be a logical answer as to why we have an in built sense of morality. It would answer why we hunger for answers such as whether God exists or not.

I apologise I should have stated most atheists would tell us that was the reason. Sorry.

My point is why do we care of the survivla of the species?. Where does that desire come from?. Even if you say it is just part of nature then why does nature behaves that way?.

I shall try and explain to you why I believe it helps, though it may seem gibberish as I find it hard to explain. If God does not exist all of morality would be up for grabs. Why would you listen to someone or a government who only had an opinion, your opinion would be every bit as valid as theirs. So why should anyone listen to them. Theists even from various faiths have more or less the same moral codes to go by. Many atheist also have the same moral code also, however theirs is only based on their human opinion where as theists believe their moral code comes from god.
For eg. most theists (though not all) do not agree with abortion. They have their faith as moral guidance on the matter. Some atheists do not agree with abortion and some do, so how do you tell one side they are wrong and the other side is right, you are only given an opinion you cnnot look to faith our God a moral compass. Having a foundation for your opinions gives it more credibility, where as having just your personal opinion, that is all it is an opinion.

 

I've never seen anyone make this argument with any actual sense of probability and possibility. It's improbable that I will win the lottery. The odds are 170,000,000:1. However, someone wins the lottery about once every 6 weeks. Given enough opportunities, everything that is possible, no matter how improbable, will happen. We don't know how many universes exist beyond our own, or how many possibly failed universes happened before ours. Furthermore, if our universe is infinite (which there are a lot of astrophysicists who think there is evidence to suggest), including matter, then it is inevitable that we would exist and be as we are. No god necessary.

There's strength in numbers. Morals and empathy make for better, less destructive group dynamics.

Why does there have to be a point to our existence? Personally, I like Carl Sagan's idea that we are the universe's method for observing itself. If you need there to be a point to your existence, then go with whatever makes you feel the most warm and fuzzy inside.

There is such a thing as objective morality. Socrates explains it really well in Plato's "The Republic." It's in the first 100 or so pages, I think. You may want to give it a read.

 

The chances of God exsting are very probable. The 1st thing must have been something creative in order for anything else to exist. The solar system tha laws of physics, the whole universe would suggest design in the universe. Everything appears to be ordered and works in a proper fashion. So to me the evidence for the existence of God is everywhere.

I know everyone has different moral values. However most people everywhere do have some moral values that are shared by virtualy every society and culture. Most recognise murder as wrong, most try to help the sick and weak, etc.

If there is no point to our existence then that would also suggest we are just random chance, which is very improbable. However if there is pint to our existence that would suggest something greater than the here and now.

Evolution is not part of a belief system. Fine if you wish we will leave it out of the discussion.
I am not asking what species will exist if there is no will to exist. i am asking why do we have the desire that our species should continue?.
What is the reason?.

I believe I have gave arguments as evidence for the existence of God.
As for evolution I never said I am for or against it in my post.
Yes, you are correct what I said about society does have no relevance to the topic, so once again I apologise. Sorry.

 

Ugh, so many failed arguments in this thread, and they have nothing to do with proving god exists. It's hard to resist arguing about these horribly illogical stances, but they're red herrings.

 

Yeah, that makes no sense. Why does god not need a creator but the universe does? That's not consistent. Obviously, things can exist without a creator, because the existence of a first object proves that, be it god or the material for the universe. So, again, what makes it more likely that some super powerful being just happens to exist in it's completed form instead of the material that developed into the universe over billions of years?

That's not a scientific statement.

By your logic, the existence of god would prove that another creator must have existed to create an orderly being. Order does not denote a creator.

Most =/ all, and this is not relevant to proving god exists.

You have yet to prove a point and a reason why having a point would meant that there is a god.

Evolution is not part of atheism. I was an atheist before I believed in evolution. And evolution being invalid in no way proves a god exists.

Do you want a lesson in biology or do you want to argue about whether or not god exists, because the reason for us having a desire to continue our species is irrelevant to the proof of god.

Think again. You provided red herrings and unscientific conclusions.

You obviously doubt evolution, because you seem to think that you're pointing out problems with it as if this proves god.

Alright.

 

No not everything is possible no matter how improbable. For example do you believe a boeing 747 can just come into existence without any intervention. I mean if all the right atoms and molecules just randomly came together and produced a 747 do you believe that is possible?. Yet in theory that could happen, but the odds are astronomical. It is an impossibilty. There is a term for this but it escapes me at the moment.
Most scientists go by the big bang theory which fits the current model. The person who cam up with the big bang was a belgian priest Fr Georges Lemaitre. Many atheists used to say that in an infinite universe given an infinite amount of time that life as we know it was inevitable. However most scientists currently believe the universe had a begining and is not infinite. So now many athests tell us that there could be an infinite number of universe even though we have no reason to believe it. It seems to be a good way to try and explain why ours is so unique, and so improbable by making the claim there could be trillions or even an infinite number of universes.

Why should we care about group dynamics?. Why should we care about the survival of our species?. If it all means nothing what is the point?. Why should anyone care about what happens after their own life cycle?. Where does this emotion come from?. Why do we have this inbuilt to us?.

I there is no point then why bother of helping the sick and elderly?. Why bother adhering to the rules of society?. If you think you can get away with something why not do it?.

I know what objective morality is, I have also read what Plato said on the matter. Though it was a long time ago, thanks for the reading tip though.

I am not saying that I can prove the existence of God. What I am trying to say is there is evidence to support the existence of God, if there was proof then there would be no need for faith.

 

Then your basis is a false dichotomy. Intelligent design and random chance are not the only possibilities, there IS a third option. There may be some cause that is deterministic but not intelligent. Nobody knows for sure, so it certainly isn't evidence of any kind of god.

I'm not sure how anyone can claim nature is intelligently designed. I could point to any number of things in nature that are badly designed if indeed they were designed, but if they were not designed intelligently then these do not need to be explained away.

What odds? You still havent placed a figure on any of this. And so what if they are astronomical - the universe IS astronomically sized, so an astronomically small possibility throughout an astronomically large sample size, is actually the very OPPOSITE of impossible.

Complexity alone is not good evidence of intelligent design. Complexity can and does arise from randomness.

I believe this has already been answered. Selection pressure reinforces traits that improve the chances of reproducing, and weeds out traits that reduce chances of reproducing. Traits that have negligible effect on reproduction are unaffected by selection pressure. The desire to survive is so obviously beneficial that this really ought to be a no-brainer.

You misunderstand evolution, it is not some kind of progress, because there is no ultimate goal to progress towards. Evolution is merely the result of selection pressure applied to organisms capable of reproducing. Humanity might represent a 'special case' though. Due to how heavily we manipulate the immediate environment, selection pressure from that environment is affected. For example, someone with a crippling illness might not have lived to adolescence three thousand years ago, but nowadays he might have a family. What this means for human evolution in the long term is hard to say.

Are you not reading my answers or something? I said "perhaps it's an extension of the general desire to look after those close to us - and for some people that desire does not extend so far."

In other words, an extension of the social aspects that evolved in many species which helped that species survive.

It is simply false to say that a society without God has no foundation. There are already societies that exist without a god and they are comparable to others around today.

I gave no analogy, btw. But since you bring it up... government isnt the same thing as society. Looking back at the days of slavery, it looks wrong to us. At the time, though, society may well have thought differently, as you point out. I have absolutely no doubt that things we consider right today will be looked back upon in future with some level of disgust. Even you pointed out that society used to think slavery should be permitted. If morality truly did come from God, then why does it change in this way?

 

Something must have always existed, that something must have been a creative force, in order for anything to come into an existence. The universe is believed to be 13.7 billion years old. It is also believed to have came from a singular that imploded and all creation came from that singular. So a creative force that set everything into motion I believe would be one definition for God.

How is it not a scientific statement?. These things show order and design and go to help prove the existence of God.

No. My logic does not denote any such thing. I am clearly stating the first thing is something that has always been, and that it must have been creative in order for anything else to come into existence.

I am asking where does this inbuilt morality come from?. I think this is further evidence that points towards the existence of God. Which is a good reasonable and solid explaniation, what is your reason for it?.

I am saying if there is no point to our existence, then our existence is not design it is chance. Us existing just by chance is so highly improbable it is impossible. Which in turn would be further evidence of God's existence. I never said anything about proving the point to our existence just that there probably is a point to it. If there is no point to it then we are just lucky to exist and that is so improbable it is impossible.

Inever said evolution was part of atheism, I do not know what your point is. Nor did I say evolution was invalid. In fact evolution I believe would furthter point to design, but thats a whole other topic.

The desire to me has a lot to do with whether God exists or not. Why is it nautre behaves the way it does?, why do we have this instinct?. Is it all random or is it design?.

If you think my arguments are red herrings and unscientific conclusions. Please give me your evidence for the non-existence of God.

I do not doubt evolution, I do not know enough about the facts of it. I would like to know why you believe I doubt it.

 

Are you sure you are not leaning towards atheism? Most of your arguments are self defeating.

Do yourself a favor and spend one day really looking at the world around you.

Do not look for god in anything you see, appreciate everything on its own merits. Think about your own life and the things you want to accomplish, the kinds of friends you would like to make. Think about your death, ignore your natural yearning for immortality and think about what you will leave behind, the lives you will have influenced and how you, by having existed, will help shape the future.

There is nothing ethically or logically wrong with atheism.

 

If the cause is deterministic, then it is design, it was preordained. Also it appears as to be intelligently designed everythig works it is in order. The universe, the laws of physics, etc, etc.
If they were designed at all no matter if thye are badly designed or not it is still indicates intelligent design. It is not just random. A little child doing the spec of a suspension bridge, may just draw a simple colouring of a bridge, you would say that is not an intelligent design. However it would be it was not random the page was not just scribbles. Some people are eccentric and they like things quirky and not just a smooth finish.
The simple fact you say you could find fault in the design if in fact it was designed on some of nature would suggest there is some sort of design in it.

These odds have been worked out, I am sure you can find them but they are astronomical. The odds are so large that many scientists say there must be infinite multi-verses that is why ours is probably inevitable and so highly unlikely. However we have no real reason to believe this aoart from our own universe being so unique and highly improbable. Complexity and order do not arise from randomness. I mean you never went out to do something and ended up building a computer by accident.

The fact of reproducing is not a no-brainer to me. That is also not what I am asking. I want to know why we desire to ensure the survival of our species?. Reproducing, the act is enjoyable that part is easy to understand, but why do we care about the survival of the baby?. If God does not exist and we only live this life and die, then why should we care if our offspring survives or not?.

Evolution to me is a progress. I mean we definitely do not regress. Animals do not get more stupid, or less weak, they adapt and become a better version of what they were before. I do not misunderstand evolution if you look I was asking opinions on it, I was not making a statement on it myself. I am sure your right there is maybe I do not understand on this matter, however what I am saying is that it only asks more questions. Evolution to me appears to show design.

I am reading your posts, and once again I am asking why after any individuals life cycle would they care about survivla of the species. Why do we have a desire to look after those close to us?.

Morality does not change just peoples perception of it. What was wrong yesterday is wrong today, and will be wrong tomorrow regardless of what the majority say.
The wrongs committed by the majority in the past are not justiofied simply because they were in the majority. I am sorry for bringing up the thing about society and morality as it is not relevant to this current discussion, if you want we can discuss it on another thread.