Bitcoin Will Devour Gold, Says MicroStrategy CEO

Discussion in 'Economics & Trade' started by scarlet witch, Nov 10, 2020.

  1. Oh Yeah

    Oh Yeah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I wouldn't be so sure of that. I have foils that have different quantities of gold etched into them. They have different amounts of gold and Nevada and Utah allow the exchange of these currencies. They fit in my wallet. Just for kicks this year I bought gold foil bars (Aurum's) that I can carry in my wallet. Each one is 100mg of Gold. I'm going to use them for stocking stuffers this year.
     
  2. Oh Yeah

    Oh Yeah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I Just this 1 oz silver round which is digitally registered. This is another way to protect your money. [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG]
     
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  3. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    I'm pretty sure of the definition of money.
    They are not money because they are not generally accepted in exchange.
    So they are what, souvenirs?
     
  4. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    From the 4-initial abbreviation, I'm assuming that this is a NASDAQ-listed company. That changes nothing, in my view.
    Just because a company that acts as, in effect, a retailer (or wholesaler) of Bit coin has some assets, does not make them in the least a guarantor of anything other than what you get from them is actually Bit coin. Whether Bit coin is worth anything, is utterly determined by the caprice of investors. I think to make the same argument of other commodities-- foodstuffs, minerals that are desired for their many practical uses, etc.-- things with intrinsic value, is a false analogy. You cannot eat a Bit coin. Nor can you build anything with it. It is not even a true CURRENCY, in my view, because, even though some will accept it, it lacks any government issuer-- or even any known source!-- and, unlike barter currencies, has no desirable qualities in & of itself so, in that respect, is worth even less than the tulips which both created, & then devastated, so many Dutch fortunes of the (not-so-distant) past.
     
  5. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Ok so let me point to an irregularity in your statement that makes no sense. You say
    but then also say
    Yes Bitcoin is decentralized, the blockchain backs it, no corrupt human banker stealing our hard earned money.... but if there's no one behind it whose scam is it? Basically you're saying the blockchain...which is completely transparent.... is scamming us. Maybe think before you spew crap.

    I promote Bitcoin because I understand our current monetary system is dysfunctional and corrupt, the bankers and politicians at the top of the pyramid is stealing from us. Of course that makes your statement about Bitcoin being a scam also ironic. As Bitcoin is the only money that is not centralised & manipulated, even gold is centralised and manipulated.... there's no crooked politician and banker behind it....but there you are pointing the finger at Bitcoin...the blockchain...while standing knee deep in corrupt fiat & debt pyramids.
    I also understand that due to the Eurodollar, the reserve currency, no economy will experience true growth again.... a positive GDP only means your debt is increasing, the economy itself is caught between stagnation and recession...even depression. The only way out of this is a gold standard.... but I prefer the Bitcoin standard because bankers have been manipulating gold prices in anticipation of this "reset" means they're screwing all of us once again.

    Your pokemon cards statement is ridiculous.... it is up to this point the most absurd statement about bitcoin I have ever heard.... and I've heard quite a few.

    Bitcoin for illegal goods...well you can chew on the first Bitcoin 401k created...
    US-based Investment firm launches first Bitcoin 401(k) plan following investors demand
    https://zycrypto.com/us-based-inves...bitcoin-401k-plan-following-investors-demand/
    And
    Bitcoin on Brink of Surpassing Market Cap of America's Largest Bank
    https://u.today/bitcoin-on-brink-of-surpassing-market-cap-of-americas-largest-bank

    But please, do me a favour... don't buy bitcoin...because shortsighted people deserve to be left behind
     
  6. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    It's true that the modern debt money system of finance capitalism makes private commercial banks into greedy, privileged parasites; but they are not the most corrupt entity.
    No, it's not like investing in the Internet. People want to use the Internet, and now spend hours using it every day. People do not want to use $#!+coin, they only want to own it. That's what makes it a speculative vehicle, not an investment.
     
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  7. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    I am going to stop you there, to see which one of us is spewing crap, as you so eloquently put it. Perhaps you've not read any of my other postings, but I am not in the habit of commenting without thinking; that does not preclude the possibility of my being wrong, or being misinformed or unaware of some bit of information.

    From my initial understanding of Bit coin-- which was terribly explained, I'll grant, by those in the media-- these coins had been planted in the internet, but could be dug up, mined, by concentrated use of computers running, presumably, code-breaking programs. But the important fact that jumped out to me was that no one knew HOW the coins CAME TO BE WHERE THEY WERE, i.e., their CREATOR was UNKNOWN.

    If this understanding, at that time, has since changed, I would be very grateful for your updating me. There is no need for insult, in this situation, only facts. To wit, your first contention is devoid of logic. Something CAN'T be a scam, if we don't know who's BEHIND IT? Do you not see it is THAT contention which is patently false?

    Having seen this as a scam, from the first, it perhaps should not be so surprising that I have not been following Bit coin developments. Are you saying that, "blockchain," is now claiming itself to be the ORIGIN of the Bit coins? Because, if not, then it does not change my argument or conclusion. If you cannot understand that fact, it is indicative of your reply lacking thought, or comprehension of my post, to which you were responding. Though, as you have an admitted, vested interest (which you had been concealing beforehand), I really don't expect an objective opinion from you.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2020
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  8. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    No. Bitcoins are numbers that Bitcoin miners discover by factoring very large numbers.
    No one created the Bitcoins. All numbers have always been where they are and always will be. We just don't know where or what the Bitcoin numbers are until they are discovered.
     
  9. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    This is the epitome of poor explanations. Your saying that the, "coins," are numbers is something that I understand but, as they're not called, "Bit Numbers," your supposed point, is purely semantic. As to the rest of your argument, in case it is not blatantly obvious to you, as it is to anyone who might sincerely wish to understand Bit coin, your statement that, "All the numbers have always been where they are and always will be," begs for further explanation. Any random numbers, w/in the internet, are not used to pay for things. These are, as I understand it, codes of some sort. Since NOTHING in the internet got there on its own, someone must have put them there. Further, to say that they have always been there, requires your explanation of why they existed on day 1 of the internet.

    Based on your, in lieu of any actual explanations, only making grand assertions w/ the expectation that they might be accepted merely on your say-so, I am guessing that you, like the scarlet witch, have a financial interest in the Bit coin market. The other possibility, of course, is that you don't really understand it, yourself.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2020
  10. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    Sorry.
    I don't understand this objection. Any number is expressed in computers as a string of bits: a "bit number." "Bitcoin" is a linguistic coinage, a new word that identifies certain numbers that will be accepted as "Bitcoins."
    Only certain -- very, very, very few -- numbers qualify as Bitcoins.
    No, they are just very large numbers that have certain properties.
    No, they have always been there.
    They have existed since the beginning of Time, or maybe even before that.
    I don't, and SW has not looked kindly on my view of $#!+coin, consistently expressed in this thread, which is that it is a speculative asset, not an investment, and not money.
    That is certainly possible. I don't pretend to understand in detail how blockchain works. So I'll wait and see if anyone else in the thread proffers a better explanation.
     
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  11. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    Can you elaborate on that statement? What is so special about these numbers? All I knew about them was that it took computing power & time to, "mine," them. But why does that entitle the code-breaker/scavenger-hunter to something of monetary value? More to the point, why should any seller of goods or services treat a Bit coin-- which can be seen, from my current understanding (to which you've not yet added), as essentially a prize for solving a puzzle-- like real, universally-accepted money; as a thing that has behind it, an asset-possessing guarantor, against whose collateral we extend their currency our faith in its representing something of value? (When one accepts the Bit coin, they don't also get the, "number," right? And, even if they did, what possible use would a barber, or a clothing retailer, or restauranteur, have for it?) Do you see that, despite your boldly stellar claims, you have shed no light on the nature, significance, relevance, or importance of these number-combinations?
     
  12. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    I don't know how to make it any clearer.
    They are hard to identify.
    So they are scarce.
    That's the $#!+coin scarcity paradigm.
    I gather it is because it is fundamentally private, and not based on anyone else's liability, guarantee, or legal authority.
    That is the point of $#!+coin: it doesn't rely on any guarantor, just the consensus of the market.
    You get the discoverer's "prize."
    It is not useful for anything but blockchain.
    I don't know what you mean by that. I am just trying to explain it. I assume that if I get anything wrong, someone who knows better will correct me.
    It's a peculiar phenomenon that will not be readily comprehensible to anyone not familiar with number theory and its relation to cryptography. The Bitcoin numbers comply with certain rules -- i.e., mathematical constraints -- that guarantee their permanent scarcity, making them "exchangeable" for goods and services through blockchain technology. It is those rules and the blockchain that give them their significance, relevance and importance.
     
  13. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    Your knowledge of Bit coin comports with my own. What I don't understand is why your interpretation of that information leads yo to any other conclusion than that, as a currency, it's a joke. These,"mathematical constraints," you cite are nothing more than rules in a GAME. The fact that they are, "rare," is no more argument for their value than would it be for a rare-issued Pokemon Card (see my recent reply to scarlet witch) or Cabbage-Patch Kid. Do you not recognize this? And without a national economy to back it up, it is essentially worthless. While the value of a national currency, or a share of stock, may decline, there is at least something TANGIBLE behind it, so, with rare exception, these don't precipitously fall to being devoid of all value. With Bit coin, the bottom's falling out is not contingent on a government overthrow, or on a company suddenly having a mountain of debt & no business. It's as close as having investors, and/or vendors who currently accept Bit coin, changing their minds & losing faith in it; because that's the only thing supporting it: blind faith.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2020
  14. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    The most favorable analogy one might speculate of buying Bit coin, would be that it is like investing in a new form of modern art: an invisible & non-physical, completely conceptual form.
     
  15. Sappho

    Sappho Newly Registered

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    In, 2005, seeing that a significant market correction was being forecast by those in the know, I moved my assets into physical gold and have continued buying...
    The crash came, and my assets were secure as a consequence. Recently, I bought a safe and am in the process of moving the gold from the bank to my safe... I buy coins only to reduce the risk of fraud. I have done this because I can see another reset coming far greater than the last crash.... It is the bond bubble crash, me thinks...which will see the compulsory acquisition of cash by bankers.

    Now, how is my approach not the wisest approach?
    How is bitcoin a better option?

    I really don't understand it and the jargon bit coin uses makes it difficult to understand.
     
  16. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    Art is something someone might enjoy -- though I don't see how anyone can enjoy a lot of what passes for art these days. It is not possible to enjoy $#!+coin.
     
  17. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    I have stated several times that $#!+coin is not and will never be money.
    Games are played for fun. $#!+coin is serious.
    Like the value of anything else, the value of $#!+coins comes from their combination of scarcity (supply) and utility (demand). Their scarcity comes from the mathematical rules governing their discovery. Their utility comes from their independence from any issuing authority: some people want to be able to use a purely electronic/digital globally accepted exchange medium that no government or corporation can control or confiscate.
    Some people want to use an exchange medium that is not subject to any government's authority.
    True, but much the same could be said for a lot of collectibles, like the "art" of Damien Hirst.
     
  18. Oh Yeah

    Oh Yeah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    They are exchangeable and tradeable with those who participate. I can actually dissolve them and get the gold from them. Many people through out the years have used gold to bribe their way out of oppressive regimes. This year I am going to use them to teach my grandchildren some basics in buying, selling and trading precious metals and the value of long term saving.
     
  19. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Don't you have anything to occupy you during the day... is that why you dedicate so much time to rubbish. I stopped reading at paragraph 2...I simply don't care :lol:

     
  20. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This is your opinion... it's nothing more than an Opinion....and you're entitled to it
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2020
  21. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    Calling facts opinions does not stop them from being true, sorry.
     
  22. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    yes it does... it's an opinion...it's true, for YOU, not necessarily for anyone else :lol: can't believe I'm explaining opinion to you...
     
  23. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    No, it doesn't.
    It's true independently of what anyone thinks, that's what makes it a fact, not an opinion.
    Can't believe you really think calling a fact an opinion can make it not true.
     
  24. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    It's funny, or frustrating, depending on one's attitude, that we seem to have similar basic opinions of Bit coin but are talking past one another. To my mind, I don't know how it's not abundantly clear what a-- well, to use my own words-- "scam," Bit coin is. Yet, your initial reply to me felt like you were defending it. And the reverse dynamic seems to happening w/ you, i.e., you seem to be regarding some of my statements to be more positive than your own sentiments.

    I haven't read your posts prior to my joining the thread. I differ w/ this aspect of your opinion (above) because it is manifestly false; if some people, who didn't want,"government," involved in their financial interactions, decided amongst themselves to accept, at face value, some specially-tailored stack of Monopoly money, that would make it, "money," within that group. Likewise, some have decided to treat Bit coin like real money, so among them, for now, it is money. Money is as money does. I-- & I now see that you completely agree-- feel this is very foolish of those those people, in that this currency is neither something w/ any intrinsic value (as would be the case if this were a barter-type of, "currency," which could also include coins made of valuable metals), nor is this tender underwritten by any institution (as a government) which owns & controls resources to back-up its valuation.

    Apparently you do not have a well-developed sense of sarcasm/irony. I was saying that the, "scarcity," aspect, which it seemed, to me, you were treating as a valid rationale (in answering my question, what is so special about these numbers that anyone should consider assigning worth to the, "prize," that comes with finding them?) is nothing more than rules in a game, meaning that it is not a justification for considering Bit coin as having any value (outside of a, "game," mentality). See below.

    I also acknowledged this one reason that people use Bit coin, to escape detection of their assets and transactions. Other than for those who deal in illegal goods/commodities, & people trying to evade income taxes, I don't see why anyone else would rationally decide that, "freedom," from institutions was worth the monumental risk inherent in being free from any institutional issuer or guarantor.

    Again, I was being a bit facetious, but (as I'd said in my post) looking at Bit coin in the most generous light, because I thought I was conversing with someone (you) who held Bit coin in some degree of regard higher than my own. Actually, art can be a very good investment. But this, "art--" the quotation marks meant to show that it is a something that, by definition, is subjective, as well as to imply that it's not the best description of my own view, so their are no more misunderstandings-- is purely conceptual, only exists in the mind of those treating it as currency; akin to, e.g., LARPers engaged in the art of enacting their imagined story lines. But, of course, living within the Bit coin narrative, entails far more financial risk than typical roleplaying games.

     
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  25. DEFinning

    DEFinning Well-Known Member Donor

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    So you're posting to tell me you didn't bother to read my post? Sounds like you've got quite the full load there, to occupy yourself!
     

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