Can a Hardened Nuclear Missile Silo Be Disable With A conventional weapons strike?

I did R&D in the electronics arena, nowhere near beakers or sterile floors. It was mainly finalizing concepts, overseeing "breadboard" and "brassboard" prototypes, conducting laboratory DT (Developmental Test), managing field OT (user "Operational Test"), then fielding the devices globally with a NETT (New Equipment Training Team). Systems included night vision, tracking systems, lasers, "fire control" (weapon aiming), and simulations designed for training and tactics development.

 

I did read all of this fantasy you spun, but this one really jumped out at me.

For a great many reasons, but especially this one.

To start with, are you even aware of how large the Iranian Merchant Marine is? I can tell you, 40 ships. 18 of which were actually Panamanian flagged until sanctions caused Panama to remove their registry and they were flagged once again in Iran. And they are all oil or natural gas transports. Not exactly the greatest ship to launch missiles from.

Also, apparently you are not even aware of the range of a SCUD. I can tell you right now, the longest range version of that is the SCUD-D, range of around 600 kilometers. That means that even if launched off the coast of Virginia, they would reach all the way to... Kentucky.

And good luck with Iranian fishing boats off the shore of the US in this fantasy. The Coast Guard would be all over them, stopping any such boats at over 300 km from the shore to see what Iranian boats are doing so damned far away from the Persian Gulf. Not to mention the many restrictive bodies of water they would have to pass through, somehow avoiding all searches from other nations on the way.

Oh, and I know damned well what a TEL is. And the time to reload a TEL from a transporter reloader is around 90 minutes. And I think it would be interesting to see what the reload time would actually be, as there is no way they could place both the TEL and do a reload from a reload transporter inside of a ship. Not to mention that the fumes from the launch would be highly toxic, not to mention corrosive. You know, the kind of things that people who know the equipment are aware of, but many have no concept of at all.

And come on now, the Kharg? A British built oiler ship, built in the 1960's and having nothing other than a few light guns for defense. But once again, you actually think the Kharg could have made it anywhere even close to the US without every US asset in the area surrounding it as soon as it entered the Atlantic? Come on now, it was a freaking fleet tanker. And at its blazing speed of 21 knots it was somehow going to make it all the way off the US shore undetected?



Hell, why not one (or all 3) of the Hengam class LSTs they have? Or one of their Farsi class LSTs? Either one of those would make a hell of a lot more sense than their fueler-replenishment ships.

Of course, maybe the fire and sinking of it last year was all really just a ruse. And it is really being secretly refurbished into a submarine tanker, so it can sail undetected to the US and conduct this attack.

As I said, interesting fantasy, but not even close to being possible. Might as well spin one about them loading them onto civilian aircraft and then detonating them once over head. That is far more plausible than the fantasy you just spun us.

 

Until it sank due to fire last year, the Kharg was the premier ship in the Iranian Navy. It was outfitted with elevators to serve as a helicopter tender if nee be. BS all you want, but an elevator which could raise or lower a helicopter from/to below decks is totally capable pf lifting a SCUD TEL. BS all you want, that's simply the truth.

Actually, the range of a SUPERSCUD (space taken from mission equipment area and utilized for extra fuel) is about 2500 meters. North Korea gave Iran SUPERSCUDS in payment for Iran's advanced refinement of nuclear materials, something North Korea couldn't do for itself.

Iran controls hundreds of ships, flagged all over the world. Many are flagged in Venezuela, just as an example. Nothing about them would trigger any response from the Coast Guard.

It was assumed that only a very few SUPERSCUDS could accomplish the mission of spreading EMP across the interior of the USA from the stratosphere. Some analysts said only ONE would be required. a TEL (s) could be loaded onboard with SCUDS ready to be raised above decks and fired. (Notice the "T" in TEL... it stands for TRANSPORTER... the "L" stands for LAUNCHER.. this one system can TRANSPORT and LAUNCH. Just load it, with SCUD onboard, onto the ship.) The effects of toxic fumes would be no more deadly since launch would be on the deck, than the fumes are to crews firing on land. (Decks are above sea level... so is land.)

At the time the Kharg was essentially parked in the Atlantic, well outside US waters, well within range of conducting an EMP attack. The Kharg was outfitted to complete a range of missions. The tiny Iranian Navy doesn't have the luxury of having specific ships for specific purposes, as we do. The Kharg was an oiler and was rebuilt for many purposes. Remember the first US aircraft carrier? The USS Langley? It was originally the USS Jupiter, a "collier". Colliers were built to carry coal to our ships of the line, much like the "oiler" you described. If we could build an aircraft carrier from a coal hauler so long ago, just imagine what could be made from an oil hauler today!

Your childish comments about "fantasy" and "submarine tanker" don't help in your effort to discuss things as an adult, by the way.

 

So you're the guy they hired to solder wires as well as mop the floors and empty baskets?

 

lol keep digging that hole, even though it's already over your head. The Iranians' 'premiere ship' sank because of a fire? lol yes, it was very top notch as a threat.

 

No. I'm the guy that went all over the world talking to US and Allied Soldiers to find out what sorts of things they's like to have. Then I'm the guy who got together with teams of engineers to generate a concept for such things and then produce detailed drawings, followed by prototyping, testing and eventual fielding. your childish insults are embarrassing you, Little One.

 

Well, to be honest, most of the U.S. population does live east of the Mississippi, so as a terror weapon they don't really need much in the way of longer range if they made it to the coastal waters in the first place. But, the Israelis alone would have more than enough assets there to keep us informed, assuming our pols don't piss them off too badly.

 

Biden claims he's doing that, too. Reminds me of that movie Air America, where that Senator goes on a 'fact finding tour'. lol

 

What in the hell is a "superscud"? Because nothing made by North Korea comes even close to what you are trying to describe.

That makes it a MRBM, and here is what NK has.

To start with, there is the KN-2. A two stage solid fueled missile, which as a SLBM. The range is around 2k km, so close to what you are claiming.

The Hwasong-9 (also called the SCUD-ER) can not be it, the range of that is only 800 km.

I can go down through all of the North Korean ballistic missiles, and none is known as the "SUPERSCUD". Once again, a figment of your imagination.

And yes, I know what a TEL is, I already said that. But a TEL is not a reloader. It transports and launches missiles, but there is yet another vehicle which carries the missiles for reload. In this case, one missile per vehicle.

But please, also tell us more about when the IRIS Kharg was sailing around the Atlantic. I am aware of last year when the IRIS Makran (another oiler) and IRIS Sahand (a light frigate) entered the Atlantic. But they did not sail to the US, they went up the coast of France and through the English Channel on their way to St. Petersberg to celebrate the Russian Navy Day festivities. Not the Kharg, and nowhere close to the US.

You know, it would help if you actually gave some kind of references, because I have been looking all over, and have found absolutely no verification for any of your claims.

But the voyage of the Makran and Sahand was hardly a secret, they were monitored the entire way from the Persian Gulf to Russia and back.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/06/11/middleeast/iran-navy-atlantic-intl/index.html

So please, some kind of credible reference that the Kharg was sailing off the US coast? And what in the hell a "SUPERSCUD" is. Sounds more like something from a Dale Brown novel than a real missile.

 

I know you have no interest in FACTS, but I'll reference this for you anyway. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRIS_Kharg Note that the ship was almost 19,000 gross tons and had a crew of 400. Your childish insults have now extended beyond me to include you insulting ships. Does that make you feel good?

 

Nobody is insulting you; you just know you're full of stuff is all, and it makes you paranoid.

 

Biden never visited the Greek Field Artillery School and demonstrated a Stinger. Biden never went to Salisbury Plain in the UK and helped them integrate the MILES training system into their attack helicopter training. Biden never led a team of L3 engineers to develop a bolometer (uncooled thermal) night sight for crew served weapons. Biden never helped develop a man-portable tracking system based on an inertial device. Biden never worked with DARPA to integrate PATRIOT into a simulation to decrease "sensor-to-shooter" latencies we encountered in Desert Storm. Those are just a few of the things I did that Biden never did.

 

Oh great, a Wikipedia page as a reference.

BTW, did you notice these two entries?

https://apnews.com/article/e5a99a2bd9564ff1a8b1000894935051

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/13/iran-us-warships-atlantic-diplomat-border

So once again, care to give us a reference to the Kharg actually sailing off the US coast?

Funny, because even your own reference says it never happened.

 

Ok... I can present all the facts I want and it doesn't make a dent in your narcissism or conceit. You are a typical liberal with an "I am God" attitude. As the great bard once said, "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It only wastes your time and irritates the pig."
Be well.
I will ignore you now.

 

Thanks, I already have enough dumbasses triggering my alerts thingy. You can't seem to get away from inventing strawmen.

 

Your reference is from 2014. EIGHT YEARS AGO. A lot has happened since then.

 

Well of course not; he didn't deal with low level flunkies sent around to massage some visitor nobody ever heard of and wasn't bringing any money in with him. Did all the troopers fall on the ground and kiss your ankles and stuff in awe of you when you showed up?

 

lol that's pretty funny given your idiotic responses to my cite of a 30 year old report.

 

Well, the next one that you present will actually be the first.

And why is that every "Ultra-Conservative nutcase" suddenly starts to scream I am a "Liberal" when they are unable to hold their own weight in a debate? You know, one that actually relies upon things like actual references?

As an FYI, I am a Conservative. But I find your claims laughable, and the very fact that you are unable to actually validate a single one of your claims (and the time you did try to use a reference it backfired because it contained information that completely destroyed your claim).

But once again, reference? Because I find it funny that you are claiming victory, even though you have not provided a shred of evidence to back up your claims, yet I used many to show that you do not know what you are talking about.

But I did get a chuckle at your claims to have improved the PATRIOT missile in a simulation. No idea what "latencies" you are talking about, the issues were because of a software glitch that only occurred when the systems were powered up for 100 hours or more. Something that was not uncommon back then, but that was resolved fairly quickly with changes in the maintenance SOP that has all systems given a hard reset at least every 24 hours or less. Something that is still done to this day, even though that issue was resolved over 30 years ago. In fact, I can honestly say I have never seen a PATRIOT system up for more than 12 hours without being rebooted at least once. Because in standard emplacements, a Battalion of 4 Missile batteries rotates between different states of readiness, with only one up at any time short of an actual threat of inbound missiles. And even then, they rotate from 1 hot and 3 cold to 3 hot and 1 cold. With the one down for maintenance able to be brought back into service within 10 minutes or less. The longest part of that being the launcher crews setting the launchers into remote configuration then bugging out behind the RADAR unit so the launchers can actually be used.

Which takes roughly 10 minutes, because the 6 launchers are over 100 meters in front of the RADAR, and the crews literally have to run out over 200 meters to the side then back over 150 meters to get out of the danger areas of both the RADAR and the fumes from a missile launch. But if there is an actual "Blazing Skies" alert, they will ignore that and just run right through the radiating RADAR system to get to safety because all the bunkers are behind the RADAR.

And here is a rather unusual PATRIOT emplacement, a 3x2 one as the only threat of the defended asset is from the NE across the Persian Gulf.



A more standard configuration is the 6 launchers being placed in a line or arc, with the outermost launchers aimed more to the side to cover the entire 120 degrees that the current generation of RADAR can actually see.

But in the image above, I see 5 Launchers emplaced, one elevated outside of the emplacement location, probably having some kind of major maintenance being performed. The launcher crews if they are at their launchers would have to run all the way to the inner concertina wire before they are able to run back to behind the RADAR unit, and trust me that is quite a run. If you look at what would be "home plate" at around the 7 o'clock position, that is the RADAR. Behind it is the EPP power plant, the ECS launching van, then the AMG antenna assembly.

 

Actually, that was from your reference.

And yes, I also talked about the visit to Russia last year, which said it was the first ever for the Iranian Navy to the Atlantic.

Got an actual reference that says otherwise? With when the Kharg was actually in the Atlantic?

Hmmm?

 

In typical liberal fashion, you enter into a harangue that has nothing at all to do with the subject. The "latencies" I spoke of were not technical at all. They were operational. It all started during Desert Storm, when a satellite image revealed a SCUD launching TEL at a location in the desert. The image was recorded at 0400 local time (4 AM for the liberals in the room). The image found its way to the que at Fort Meade where it sat for hours. Eventually it worked it way through the system at the Pentagon. Along the way it was prioritized, re-prioritized, waited and eventually sent along to the next step. It never made it back in-country to the Area of Operations where it went through a similar, if somewhat truncated mass of communications gobbledeygook. Finally, around 1700 hours local time (5 PM for the liberals), a message was sent to an MLRS unit in range that could actually pull a trigger on it. Well, it turns out the MLRS unit was conducting an RSOP (relocation) and never got the message in the confusion. Finally, around 1830 (6:30 PM for the liberals), a lone Army Air Defense Major listening in from an overhead aircraft, decided to step in and get in touch with an asset that could pull a trigger.

So, from 4 AM to almost 7 PM, an identified target remained unengaged. The exercise I took part in was a simulation of the whole affair conducted by DARPA after all was said and done, to identify where the delays occurred, why they occurred, and how they could be eliminated.

So while your pretty pictures and unrelated explanations are pretty and informative, they have nothing at all to do with subject. Kind of like Democratic rambling in Congress.

 

What in the hell that has to do with PATRIOT itself, I have absolutely no idea.

But RSOP is not "relocation". RSOP is "Reconnaissance, Selection, and Occupation of Position". That is the advance team (generally squad size) that goes out in advance of a Battery and does recon of the next position it occupies. Then after inspecting it to make sure it is safe and suitable prepares it for the equipment that will be following it. The actual term for the movement of a Battery is "Road March".

Now excuse me if I laugh yet again, as you are taking some absolutely random aspects of military operations and just mixing them all together in a way that makes absolutely no sense.

Oh, and here is another reference. An excerpt from FM 3-01.85, which actually discusses what RSOP is, the members, and the roles they do during that. But as an FYI, the RSOP team generally goes out 2-3 hours plus before the Battery actually moves. During that time the Battery is still fully operational in the original location, and only hooks up the equipment and prepares to move once the RSOP is completed, all equipment location sites are selected and prepared, and security set up around the new location.

And units rarely all move out at once. They leap-frog, with at least half of a Battalion still emplaced and able to conduct the mission while the other half moves.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/space/library/policy/army/fm/3-01-85/appg.htm

And yes, I am aware that a PATRIOT Battery is not an MLRS Battery. But RSOP is RSOP, and not the movement of a unit. Does not matter if it is artillery, ADA, MLRS, or anything else. RSOP is the recon and security element that goes out in advance of the unit, it is not the unit itself.

And I notice that yet again, you give absolutely no reference at all and apparently have made most of it up as you went. Where as I actually provide a reference, and do actually know what I am talking about.

 

Don't tell me about RSOP kid, I Commanded an M110A2 Battery in Germany. And its not a squad. In the case of a tube battery conducting an RSOP its most of the following sections (by the way, "squads" are called "sections" in the Artillery): the Commo Section, at least one member of each firing element to guide in the guns to the position selected by the Commander, a security detachment, and more. Your semantic BS is quite childish. When we RSOP we mean we are GETTING OUT OF DODGE. Call it relocation, DIDI MAU, or whatever you wish. You need a little less book reference and a little more experience.

You did lighten my day though. You brought to mind a day in Babenhausen where my XO's wife used my phone to call her husband in Grafenwohr. I had returned early with the wheels and my XO had stayed to oversee the loading of the tracks onto the train. We had been at Graf for the normal annual training of 30 days, but with an extra 30 days to qualify for nuke, having gone from conventional 175mm to nuke capable M110A2 8". Well, anyway, after the 60 days, he told her she better have a mattress strapped to her back when she met him at the train to which she replied, "You better be the first man off the train!"

Oh, and the DARPA exercise to identify and eliminate delays had every element they could include in the simulation from maneuver units to Air Defense to AWACS and more. They weren't sure where the delays were coming from so they included everything in play that day in the simulation. My part was Patriot. I was working with Raytheon at the time and I went where i was sent.

 

Did I say it was a squad? No, I don't think so. Now, what did I actually say?

Wow, what I said is nothing like what you said I did. I never said it was "a squad", I said it was "generally squad size". I can see that in addition to other things, you have an issue with attention to detail.

And funny, but you do not even seem to question how quickly and easily I am able to come up with this information and references. Almost as if I actually did the job myself. You know, as if I was actually in a PATRIOT unit, and among other jobs was part of RSOP (primarily because of my earlier time in the Infantry). Even when I was in S-3, whenever RSOP went on a mission I was part of it as the Top knew I was the only one other than himself that had actually done "Infantry stuff", and still remembered how to fill out a range card. Even after my deployment when I rotated to a Missile Battery, I was still assigned to RSOP for missions. As once again, I was the only one in the Battery that had a clue about security.

So, you worked with Raytheon. Interesting, so did I. Specifically as part of the initial PDB 7 upgrade crew in 2011, at the actual location where the first PATRIOT system was tested back in 1975. I'm sure if you were working with Raytheon on the system, then you know exactly the location I am talking about. With the large building at a 45 degree angle that was the original RADAR test station. And the large metal building on widely spaced railroad tracks that could be moved into location to cover the original launcher from Soviet satellites when it was not actually being tested. Just a few hundred meters from where the first NIKE systems were tested. The remains of those are still visible, as it was literally blown after the ABM treaty in 1972.

And a hundred meters or so is still visible a classic "star array", which was common for ADA in the 1970's. A rather interesting artifact I thought, as we have not set up like that since the days of HAWK during the Vietnam War. Yet, it is still clearly visible in the sand all these decades later. And even over 4 decades after the first launch, that is still the primary test location for PATRIOT by Raytheon.

But surely if you did such work, you already know exactly where I am talking about. The site is not hard to find, it's not far from the Operation Paperclip site for the V-2 launches.

And in case you did not realize it, if you have been to White Sands you should recognize my avatar picture. Yes, that is me sitting on the mock-up Fatman device at the WSMR museum.



I just could not resist having that shot taken in 2007. In reference to one of my favorite movies, "Dr. Strangelove".

 

NCO's get paid to keep track of the details. So I understand, and I appreciate them. My first assignment out of West Point was as XO and later Commander of a Basic Training Company. I was spoiled having my first commissioned exposure to NCO's the greatest ones around... Drill Sergeants.
I actually worked with Raytheon in Massachusetts, in their Woburn facility. The only time I was at White Sands I was still in uniform conducting MILES exercises with the 3d ACR as part of the MILES AGES II NETT in the early 80's.

I had my stint in the Infantry too, although not much. I was an 11B for a short while after enlisting before I went to USMAPS. I was Commissioned in the Field Artillery, not ADA. I did a few things for Raytheon with Patriot but not a lot. I helped field MILES for Vulcan Chaparral, and Stinger though when still in uniform. I also spent some time working with KOLLSMAN on the Stinger Troop Proficiency Trainer, including a few months in Israel as an SME working with their subcontractor. As an ADA guy, did you ever use the STPT? Great memories.