Chicago hits the 1,000 homicide mark in a year

If being bat shizer crazy meant you were not a conservative, there would only be like 1/3 as many conservatives as we have in this country...

Anyways, I don't really know how I can explain what I'm saying about the Constitution, objective standards and the accuracy of such assumptions any more clearly, so I guess we'll just have to leave it at that.

 

No, you're talking about New York State in general and NYC in particular with the city being particularly nutty. I just read a book review about the wives of the upper east side with some degree of amusement. You live in an asylum and the insanity is just pervasive and infectious.
Meanwhile in Chicago, the 35th kill for the month of June now confirmed. I still think there's a chance for the bangers to break 50. Still not a single Republican, NRA or Tea Party member involved. Go figure.

 

The thing where Republicans hate on New York, San Francisco, Chicago, etc., always strikes me as so bizarre. Conservatives like to portray themselves as uber-patriots that love the US above all else, but then it turns out that actually you hate all the economic, cultural and intellectual centers of the country... It's like saying that you are the the world's biggest Seahawks fan, then going through the list of their top 15 players and ranting about how much you hate each of them. New York, San Francisco, Chicago, LA, DC, etc., are where the companies that make our economy strong are, that's where our brightest scholars live, that's where our culture is created, our inventors and scientists, our musicians and authors, our entrepreneurs and investors... If you take away all those things, what is really left that makes the US unusual in the world?

 

You might take that into the past tense. NYC is not the center of the financial universe anymore and Chicago is sitting on a huge debt bomb with no end in sight. Your future is Detroit, it just came first. I know a lot of very talented people here. If guys like me don't work you don't eat. If some of my neighbors don't work you'll freeze to death in the winter, much less fuel your cars or supply you with electricity. The Texas coastal port system is the most modern in the world and collectively one of the largest. Houston is now the center of the Energy business with Dallas and OKC big players. Houston and Dallas have world renowned medical centers with the former the largest in the world. You're like Rome in the 3rd and 4th centuries living off a reputation and not much else in a time where Ravenna become the dominant city. The Empire let the Visigoths sack it because it wasn't worthy saving and its inhabitants liabilities. That's your future.

 

The NYC metro area has a staggering GDP of almost $1.5 trillion. That is more than the entire state of Texas. With a T. Almost twice as much as the next more economically powerful metro area- LA. Almost 3 times as much as Houston and Dallas. In fact, NYC's GDP is equal to the combined GDP of the 19 least prosperous entire states put together. NYC is, and has always been, the core of the US's economy.

The "debt bomb" is also false. NYC has about $100 billion in debt. That would be a crushing debt load for most cities, but for an economy the size of NYC's it is basically irrelevant. NYC is currently running a surplus of $1.6 billion anyways.

As for the idea that people in NYC wouldn't survive without people from red states, I'm not sure how you think that would work. Why would that be the case? People in NYC could just buy that stuff from somewhere else if you guys stopped selling it.

 

I said Chicago was sitting on a debt bomb not NYC. S&P rated junk. Even the school bonds are junk. Here's what NYC does. It only manipulates money it doesn't produce it. That means anything there can move elsewhere. Your value is also built around a real estate bubble that essentially is centered upon Manhattan and parts of Brooklyn. It's losing population everywhere except in the NYC area where you leading import is poor immigrants. Your port is gone and your manufacturing base going, going, soon to be gone. Where do you think the immigrant Middle Easterners get the goats they love to eat so much? Here's a huge hint. It's not from Syria or Lebanon. It is about a quarter mile from where I sit right now. Post Ramadan is just so good for business. The Japanese and the Germans don't outsource manufacturing in NY either. It seems they like Texas, OK or parts of the old south. BTW if you don't need us why didn't you let us go in 1861 when you had the chance. It's only a matter of time till some insane Muslim gets lucky with something that goes boom. Till that time you can have the place. I'll miss the Museum of Natural History and the Theater District and not much else. The restaurants are overrated and over priced. I won't even get into the women.

 

I think this might be the core of where your economic thinking has gone wrong. You think of it like basically making physical stuff is "real productivity" and everything else is just moving money and information around and hence not important. That is not how the economy actually works at all. In the US, just a couple years ago we crossed the line where the intellectual property in the US is now worth more than all the physical property combined. Information economies are not somehow lacking compared to manufacturing economies, they are far more productive and prosperous.

The first world moved from an agricultural economy to a manufacturing economy and then on to an information economy. Each step, we became far more prosperous and productive. We don't even move on completely. We still have a significant amount of agriculture and manufacturing. But, those are no longer the sectors driving the economy. They just kind of chug along making up a steadily shrinking portion of our GDP. Eventually, something else will come along and the industries we currently focus on in the big economic centers will be replaced. The information economy jobs in the economic centers will migrate to the red states and eventually mostly to the developing world, just like agriculture and manufacturing did before it.

 

Nope, I propose a single standard that has nothing to do with whether or not a law abiding citizen could have left a situation. Rather they have to prove an imminent threat of death or great bodily harm. A system that is working very well currently.

See what I am actually proposing (see above) has already been found constitutional and I am not the one making assertions that there be two standards, that makes perfect sense to me.

Guess it depends on what the forensic evidence shows, and most thugs rarely haven't been caught yet, their criminal career generally starts early in life and has a somewhat consistent history. Also if a previously convicted criminals record shows they have gone 20 years without any more criminal activity then you could safely assume they were rehabilitated and had earned the status of law abiding citizen. More importantly the system of SYG in place now doesn't put the onus on the victim, it puts it on the thug who has earned their reputation.

Remember forensics is pretty good today, but lets say a given situation was unsolvable due to lack of provable evidence, the law reads that a person is innocent until proven guilty. We both know our system isn't perfect, people have literally gotten away with murder. However punishing law abiding citizens because of an imperfect system would be and is the true travesty. Besides your situation just isn't common enough in my opinion to warrant the action of removing SYG laws.

 

That's what Skyrim is for. But I've played the crap out of that the last few days. So now here I am.

 

That doesn't make sense. If they could have just safely walked away, they were not in any danger.

Not sure I'm following you. It still sounds like you're thinking there should be one rule for "law abiding people" and another for "thugs." You say, for example, that the onus should be on the "thug". What does that mean if not that you think the court should decide whether the defendant seems like a thug and if they think he's a thug, they should not apply SYG, but if they think he's not a thug, they should?

SYG is constitutional because it doesn't do what you're proposing- it doesn't apply any different standard to anybody. The thug can claim he was standing his ground just like the law abiding person can, and as a result, the thug can get away with murder much more easily under SYG.

What would the forensic evidence show that would matter? If even proving that a person wasn't in any danger and could have just walked away isn't enough to prove that the killer was the aggressor, what would prove that?

 

W

are there lots of criminals out there claiming SYG? Is this a problem?

 

Ah yes, the intellectual property myth. It's really only viable if you control the means of production or if you have the legal means of enforcing it. You really are a lawyer. Of course we know how the Chinese respect intellectual property. In an emergency it goes down the drain. One day the dragon will come home to roost. I'll enjoy the moment.

 

Sure it makes sense...Take walking away out of the equation...Viola the burden of proof is on the imminent threat of death or great bodily harm. Since you like examples so much...imagine a CCH observing a violent crime against another person...say a helpless grandma or a handicapped person, I'm almost certain I could walk away safely...but then again someone could die besides myself. Why walk away when you could shoot the bad actor with justification instead of worrying whether or not some boneheaded anti-gun prosecutor would say, HEY you coulda just walked away.

[

*Sigh* Take SYG out of the equation completely and you will understand perfectly. Treat every use of force confrontation as if the proof is about whether the thug forced the victim to use said force in self defense. Ignoring SYG, if the said thug could of avoided being shot and possibly killed by not forcing the victim to use said deadly force then said thug would not have been shot or on the other hand the said victim would not have been justified in using deadly to shoot the alleged thug.

SYG is constitutional because it takes the burden of proof about a deadly force encounter out of the objective opinion of many different people and puts it in the subjective belief of the person facing an imminent threat of death or great bodily harm. The rest is word games based on hypothetical situations that are not prevalent in the majority of deadly force encounters. It doesn't appear EASY for a thug to get away with murder by claiming he was applying SYG, it appears more likely that the thug gets caught and prosecuted because they cannot provide proof of imminent threat of death or great bodily harm. Your theory just doesn't hold water.

What does "could of walked away" prove?

 

That's sort of an impossible question to answer. If a person successfully uses SYG to get away with killing somebody, then they aren't a criminal. The question is whether they should be.

 

I don't get that. How could you be in imminent threat of anything if you could just safely walk away? Isn't that pretty much what being in imminent danger means- that you couldn't just walk away safely?

Defense of another is a whole different deal. That doesn't have anything to do with SYG and the standards are different. They vary pretty significantly from state to state also.

 

So your saying you have no idea if this is a problem, but you don't like it so it must be addressed.
I'm sorry but to address a problem, first you have to demonstrate that it is a problem.
You can't impose legislation on legal firearm owners unless you can prove it is necessary.

 

But gun control is effective, HOW IS THAT POSSIBILEZ!!!?!?!?!

 

You aren't in imminent threat if you could just walk away thus if you did use deadly force you would be charged with murder or attempted murder. You don't need to repeal any SYG law to accomplish that, just the laws of self defense. I don't want the government telling me I have to walk away and be able to use that against me should it turn into an imminent threat of death or great bodily harm. SYG laws do nothing to justify use of force or use of deadly force.

The exact standards I use to justify defending myself are the standards I must use to defend someone else so I don't agree they are different. I think they are pretty similar from state to state myself. SYG laws apply equally to defense of self or others, If I have a right to be somewhere then I don't have to run away.

 

Chuck, you're pissing in the wind with this guy. He's a NYC lawyer with a liberal belief system, based upon delusion. The psychiatric definition of a delusion is a false fixed belief that cannot be reasoned with despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. It's a classic example of why liberalism is a mental disorder. As a lawyer, he's invested in the delusion which reinforces it. The law is not about the law anymore, it's about power and wealth redistribution, with them taking a cut in the process. As a profession, there are way too many and we really don't need them or very many of them. We could devise a legal system that doesn't use them or very many of them. The old adage of "one lawyer in town starves and two get rich" is really quite true. In a SHTF situation what good are they really?
Meanwhile in Chicago, the 36th kill of the month confirmed. The perps, if caught will need legal representation. See what I mean. If only they could get that pesky homicide clearance rate above that lousy 25% that's about average for them. Can you imagine the place they have to keep their cold case murder books? It must rival Amazon in size.

 

Meanwhile in Chicago, the city that is missing a community organizer has now recorded its 40th confirmed kill for the month. How close will the bangers come to 50 kill for June and perhaps they will even make it? Still no one carrying a Confederate flag involved. Go figure.

 

Now we have confirmation of the 41st and 42nd confirmed kills for the month in Chiraq, a place with a complete absense of confederate flags. Still no NRA or Tea Party members, no Republicans, only Democrats and their acolytes.

 

I have confirmation Jerry Miculek was not involved either, despite owning magazines capable of holding more than 10 rounds.

Then again, he could probably load a blunderbuss in under a second.

 

We also have confirmed the 43rd and 44th kills for the month of June. Will the bangers be satisfied with the "glide to 45" or will they step up their game to attain the "Big Fifty."

 

Jerry reloads revolvers in about a second.

 

Meanwhile we have unconfirmed reports of the 45th kill for the month in Chiraq. Still a chance to reach 50 for June. However we're still waiting on an NRA member to be involved in a single one but most of them look like Obama.