Constitution

Discussion in 'Australia, NZ, Pacific' started by Diuretic, Aug 5, 2017.

  1. Diuretic

    Diuretic Well-Known Member

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    We're going on about the Constitution and amending it and what have you. I think it might be time for a new one. The current one, although repatriated from Westminster, was designed for a very different nation in very different times. I think we could have a new one to reflect what Australia is now as a nation. First item of business, dump the states. Second item of business, acceptance that in 1788 Britain took the landmass and colonised it and basically ignored the locals. Third item of business, start looking at a republic but being very careful to avoid the problems the US model has; no all-powerful equal branch of government president for one thing. There are lots of other items too I would think.
     
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  2. LeftRightLeft

    LeftRightLeft Active Member

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    I agree with most of what you say...BUT

    I would look at the republic issue first, we would need a new constitution then anyway so why do a new one twice, as for the states I disagree adamantly, we need more IMHO. Secondly, in 1788 England sent Military to invade a country they KNEW was inhabited. True they did not have the same culture as England. They didn't have huge rat infested cities riddled with starvation and disease, true they were not the most war like nation on earth, true they were not run by a few elite that was born into their positions, they certainly didn't have to send thousands of "criminals" to a life sentence the other side of the world for the crime of stealing a loaf of bread to feed their families in what at the time was an extremely rich country. They did however have their culture, their religions, their politics. The English invaders then went about to try to exterminate the true owners of this land, something a lot still would like to see done today.

    It will be impossible however in this country to wrest the power away from the 1% that control Australia and it's government
     
  3. LeftRightLeft

    LeftRightLeft Active Member

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    OK to expand on these issues.

    States and councils, we have too many levels of government. BUT we do need to have a government that goes down to the level of local government. I haven't put a lot of thought to the detail. Something like we elect a local council from which a member is elected to serve on a district council from which is elected members to form a state council from which is elected a federal council. From the federal council an executive government is elected to handle domestic issues of a national level and internationally. Rough yes, needs work, yes, any better ideas
     
  4. LeftRightLeft

    LeftRightLeft Active Member

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    A biggy in my honest opinion, SECRET BALLOTS IN PARLIMENT
     
  5. Diuretic

    Diuretic Well-Known Member

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    At least they are ideas. I get the distinct feeling at the moment - and it is at the moment in terms of the duration of the nation (had to get some alliteration in there) - that we've stopped progressing. Our parliament is flogging itself over same-sex marriage. What? Just legislate it and get on with the job they were put there to do. Recognition? While we're waiting for a new constitution ("I'll tip my hat to the new constitution...") we should recognise and then get on with everything else. The economy is failing, education needs sorting out, refugee policy ad nauseum. The next federal election can't come fast enough. Whoever wins should get their bloody finger out and govern.
     
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  6. LeftRightLeft

    LeftRightLeft Active Member

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    That's what this motley crew promised, look how that turned out with Malcolm Gillard and Tony Rudd
     
  7. Diuretic

    Diuretic Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it's almost as if we're seeing the disintegration of our form of government- and I mean the whole thing. I'm very keen on democracy but I can see that at present in our country it's all about special interests and not us ordinary types.
     
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  8. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Any constitution that seeks to protect "us ordinary types" needs to put in place strong safeguards between elected representatives and corporate interests/wealthy individuals.

    All meetings, phone calls, emails, contacts by elected representatives with anyone involved with corporations/wealth must be recorded and made public. This INCLUDES all meetings outside of working hours too. Any attempt to evade such recordings means automatic removal from the elected office in question.

    The penalty for corporate/wealthy interests trying to bribe and/or influence the actions of elected representatives must be a minimum of 10 years hard labor and for 3 or more counts it must be a life term. All corporate assets and/or wealth are forfeited to the state. The same penalties apply to the elected representative.
     
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  9. Diuretic

    Diuretic Well-Known Member

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    Yes, unfortunately one of the drawbacks of democracy is that it needs a lot of work to protect it. Vested interests are always attempting to get control without going through the ballot box.
     
  10. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member

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    Agree absolutely. Our government is corrupt and is subservient to big business, mining and the banks.
    I don't know if WA would agree to abolition of the states. they've always been a bit odd about the influence of the eastern states.
     
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  11. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    And I don't blame them in the least. One size does not fit all. What works in one part of the nation does not necessarily work everywhere else. Given as much local autonomy as possible is a better way to govern IMO.

    Yes, that means that here is the USA we end up with basket cases like Louisiana and Kansas from time to time but overall it works since the population is free to come and go as they see fit. It also acts as a bench for politicians to learn their trade before ending up running an entire nation with zero experience. Look how that is working out for us with the BLOTUS.

    There must be a wall of separation between commerce and state as far as money is concerned. That must apply to all levels of government and be strictly enforced otherwise it becomes meaningless. Yes, people are human and money can be a corrupting influence. Pay legislatures a decent living wage so that they are not susceptible to bribery but equally keep a close eye on their finances and who they associate with.

    As St Reagan put it "trust, but verify" is the key to giving consent to others to rule our lives.
     
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  12. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member

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    We have three levels of govt- municipal, state and federal.
    Three levels for corruption and influence peddling. No?
     
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  13. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if we have outgrown the ability to be democracies? Have we all become so mean and crooked, that we need a dictator to run things, so that one class is not disadvantaged by another?
     
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  14. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Ditto and ditto!

    Government employees are notoriously underpaid thereby making them susceptible to corruption.
     
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  15. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Good grief NOOOOOOO!!!!

    Yes, we have outgrown traditional democracies and we should graduate to the kind of "qualified multiple vote democracy" that Neville Shute described in his book "In the Wet" IMO.

    In essence every citizen still gets their right to vote at age 18 but it is possible to "earn" additional votes. A university degree or trade certificate would qualify someone for an extra vote. Raising a family of 2 children would qualify for an extra vote.

    Now add that to the concept of voting via the internet on major policy items that incur spending and/or taxation above a certain threshold. If Congress wants to increase defence spending the population is given the opportunity via the internet to vote on the bill. If the population vote exceeds 50% of the electorate the popular vote outweighs the votes of the elected representatives. With something like this it becomes a whole more difficult to corrupt the entire population because there are too many people involved.

    The Constitution must have a Taxing & Spending Article whereby the total amount of all government spending is taxable and must be paid for within the budget year by taxes collected. Progressive tax rates are fixed by percentages of the earnings of the various tiers of the population. With that as part of the Constitution there can be no "taxcuts" and other political BS going on. That removes another avenue for corruption since it would take a constitutional amendment to change it.
     
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  16. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member

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    Why would you give extra votes to a people who don't appreciate their vote?
     
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  17. Sallyally

    Sallyally Well-Known Member

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    Ps. I read In the Wet but have forgotten it. Must reread it.
     
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  18. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Extra votes is a greater incentive to vote. ;)
     
  19. emilynghiem

    emilynghiem Member Past Donor

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    On the contrary @Sallyally I believe populations have become more educated and worked toward becoming self-governing. When each region is big and organized enough to rebel against oppressive parent countries or govt, that's like kids outgrowing the nest and ready to live on their own.

    so why don't we set up tracks to teach populations and communities to work toward sustainable self-govt?

    If we can first organize representation by party, then people can choose whether to organize resources through their religious groups and leaders, or elected party structures. From there, they can decide on local, state or national govt, and which policies to govern on which level.

    by localizing, people can better check against corruption and abuse of their own resources. instead of concentrating too much in the hands of a few on a collective scale that's harder to address.

    I believe we can organize mass education and training through schools per district. By working with unions of police, teachers and health care workers, each district can localize the management of resources and have more direct control. This will empower people and reduce poverty, abuse and oppression from class disparity. Everyone would have access to move up from student or intern class levels to owners and managers, so the systems would be sustainable, teaching each generation to progress and move up in management while the new classes of students and workers receive training.

    www.campusplan.org
    www.earnedamnesty.org
    www.rightsfortheworkers.org
     
  20. slipperyfish

    slipperyfish Well-Known Member

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    What happens when population growth outpaces industry movement making advancement slow and cumbersome? Is there a time limit to your time at the top? Or does this Utopian society magically invent positions to keep pace with the population growth? What happens to the less educated who will never be owners or managers? Is there a place for malingerers in this Utopia? Does our push into a fully automated society work against your model society?

    Sorry for my cynicism, but I have read and heard many versions of societal Utopia from many an idealist. However one thing they never take into account is human nature. all too often good intensions end in bad results.

    Theoretically your idea is great, from a left point of view, but it all hinges on the guarantee that we all think the same, we will all see a situation exactly the same way, we will all react the same way, and we would all agree on the same resolution.

    Your Utopia is socialist at best, and yes this is the only way a Utopian society can function, but this is the very reason Communism always ends in dictatorship, by either single entity or Party of like minded individuals. History has shown us how the greater population fares under such an arrangement, be it communism or facism.
     
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