Conversation with a Pastor

Just a couple of days ago, I had the opportunity to ask a few questions of a pastor who specializes in answering enquiries from those curious about protestant christianity. She was very experienced, apparently, and holds a full time position with a large evangelical church - fielding such enquiries. Sort of a Jesus Help Desk, if you will.

Given my total failure here in getting any Christians to explain why faith is one of the three virtues, and is often asserted to be virtuous by christians, I thought I'd put it to her.

Her response was frankly astonishing. She simply kept repeating "faith is very important, and it's a beautiful thing" - no matter how many times and how many ways I asked "but WHY is it beautiful?". When I pointed out that faith makes some people kill ... she actually said "I've never formed that sentence in my mind". I asked why she hadn't, to which she replied "because my focus is on loving the Lord", or some similar platitude.

She asked me why I wasn't a Christian (just as though it were the only option - so in bubble), and I answered along the lines of 'because I couldn't worship a god who would torture my loved ones for eternity'. Silence. I then asked her how she felt about that fact of her god, and guess what she said. Yep, same again. "I've literally never formed that sentence - ever'. More silence.

So, not only was this expert question answering pastor not able to say why christians consider faith a virtue (while simultaneously telling me it is), but she has never once stopped to think through the implications of a punishing god. I'd make a healthy wager she's thought about it once or twice since our conversation, though

But I didn't post this to flatter myself (much), I want to know if anyone else has trouble getting answers from clergy. Do tell, if so.

 

Some Christians think it a sin to question faith......

 

She couldn't answer your question because she's not versed in apologetics. Most pastors aren't. A red flag should've went off in your head the moment she told you she was a pastor. Why?

1 Timothy 2:12-14 (NLT) says, "I do not let women teach men or have authority over them. Let them listen quietly. For God made Adam first, and afterward he made Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived by Satan. The woman was deceived, and sin was the result."

It's not that women aren't capable of preaching. It's just that they're easier to trick, because (like it or not) they are more emotional than men, and the vast majority of them follow their feelings before they follow their logic.

 

I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school until I was booted in fifth grade. I was asked to leave after being put in a corner for a week because I questioned the Noah's Ark story and how they got all the animals in it and how they dealt with the poop.I have noted that Christians simply do not wish to answer any questions that might lessen the faith they have created for themselves. This also explains the ability to accept things most understand as imagined or incorrect.

 

Biggest joke of the year. There are some very fine female ministers out there. In my contact with the clergy there are many male ministers who should never be in the ministry. Question them on the Bible and you can run rings round them.

Adam and Eve - a manmade fanciful story.

 

Oh heavens... so you were about ten... That's the age.. Same thing happened to me, but I kept my mouth shut.

 

So did I....not that it helped.

 

Sounds like a very smart lady. She clearly knew there was nothing she could ever say to change your mind so she stuck to a mantra, saving herself the effort of wasted breath.

 

No there aren't, because no woman with a lick of sense would ever accept ecclesiastical authority over men, any more than she would marry a man who wants to be a "house husband".

MOD EDIT - Rule 3

 

Ask your pastor how it feels to lie to children and indoctrinate them into fearing an imaginary hell.

 

You're speaking purely from anecdotal experience.

As I usually do, I must first remind you that I'm an African American male.
In the African American community, there's 1 black male for every 7 black females. The ratio is highly disproportionate. Because of this, many children are raised by a single mother, where the female is the head of the household. This also applies to black churches. Majority of the population of the typical black church is 7:1 in the woman's favor. The only males present would be just a small handful of deacons, ministers and ushers. This would include the pastor and the assistant pastor. The mothers and the saints in the church are overwhelmingly female. This is a fact. So, with that information, let me explain a few things that happen with African American men and women raised in a predominately female population with no male leaders.

1) Without the male role model being present, the young black male looks for other black male role models to find. The mother of that family would encourage the male to get a job, get a car and make enough money to take care of his wife. Doesn't seem too harmful, right? Wrong! She would typically point out her current life as a result of a dead-beat who does not do so. This is what predominately happens in an African American household.

The male then gravitates to rappers, entertainers, basketball and football players he sees on social media and TV who appear to have all the qualifications his mother says he should grow up to have. So, he imitates those people. When he grows up, his views on women are distorted. By the time he's a teenager, because the proportion of black females is 7 times higher than males, he grows up bombarded by such females looking for a mate. This makes it difficult for the male to find a single female and stay faithful. On top of that, entertainers on TV indoctrinate many young black males into believing that women are just objects for sex anyway. What ends up happening, is many of these females have sex, they get pregnant, and the black male isn't ready for commitment, so he leaves. The woman is forced to raise the child alone. What happens to the male? Well, he gets into trouble with the law, with drugs and with an assortment of different offenses that lead him in jail or dead. A very very small minority of African American men actually grow up to be responsible and decent by society standards. Those men overwhelmingly date outside of their own race, which creates and even larger gap.

2) Black women grow up without fathers, and their mothers tell them to find a man that will take care of them (sound familiar yet?). So, just like the black males, they see the entertainers in the media and look for someone similar to that. They find a flashy male and think he should take care of them. She gets pregnant and the cycle repeats.

3) The truth is that African Americans are desperate for a leader to represent them. With the number of females present, you'd think at least one of them would raise their hand to the task, but no single woman has appeared on the same strength as Martin Luther King Jr. or Malcolm X. They simply lack the influence to do so, and are therefore, incapable. President Obama, although inspirational, doesn't have his interests embedded in just the African American community. So, he's certainly not it.

4) If you want to see an example of what happens to a group of people who lack a male leader, the African American community is the best example! As a people, they are horribly fragmented, impoverished, and segmented. Without a male leader, they've become stains to American society and a poor image to economical prosperity - and to no effort of their own. Because of this, they have the highest incarceration rates in the country, they've got the poorest neighbourhoods, the worst education rates, the highest abortion rates, the highest crime rates. Even to this day, they are horribly discriminated against, and they have no single male leader to represent them. Not one. You could point to the NAACP, but they are a group who can't even get their own act together.

I agree that women can become leaders in many genres. However, they cannot be leaders in them all. That's just the reality of it all. If women were capable of being leaders in all genres, then the African American community would have a female leader leading them. Unfortunately, they do not. The ramifications behind the lack of a male leader has lead to disastrous results.

 

I repeat, there are some very fine female ministers out there.

And you think I am incompetent to make such assessments. On what grounds. One statement that I made?

 

Well I was raised in religion in fact the WELS a very conservative arm and the pastors were men ,women could do children's ministry and teaching etc., but they had four years of seminary with apologetics and always had issues with them from being young. My mind may be off wired but I do have a near genius IQ and did read a lot including books on many topics like Atheism even in middle grades. And I tried to point out if he did take the Bible literally and verbatim there are big problems with me as a moral, caring and I consider sensible human being to believe the deity he worships was anything but a cruel being who lies, harms innocent people and promotes various forms of discrimination not to mention allowing slavery. Of course he disagreed pointing out some good things like ,give credit, the Bible has good things in it but so many more evil things. The problem seems to me being steeped in one perspective from birth to seminary they can see other points of view as valid, but note that's not universal, but seems to be the main problem but having also met those of other faiths seemed to have as well.

 

What you've posted does not prove the point that many women ministers are far better than many men.
What your post shows is the inability of the community you mention to face up to its problems, come together and solve them.

You've got around a 12 African American women in your current congress, and around 250 legislators in the various State legislations. You have many black american writers, poets, actresses and business women. So women can make it.

I know you will say that many of these were 'privileged' but many of your female activists have been humble people who have fought for rights for black americans

I don't decry the problems you face, but its in your own hands.

Actually NO. In my opinion the right women can be exceptional ministers. Although I am now agnostic I have been involved with, and friends with, ministers of all denominations for decades. I think I know a little to be able to judge capabilities.




Women can be leaders in most genres given the will to succeed.

 

Lol as if faith has any thing to do with logic.

 

Then I repeat that there aren't.

You betcha.

 

The fact that you think a woman can be a pastor shows just how little you know about what the Bible says.

How could you ever expect to understand something as complicated as faith without understanding the basics.

 

I didn't mention female ministers. I said female pastors and female leaders. The very top branch of leadership. That's what I'm referring to.

As far as the community's inability to come together and face its problems. LOL. Don't you think they've tried? They simply can't. A little over 50 years ago, they've been victims of unfair laws, hate crimes and other forms of segregation. Now, they are victims of terrible education policies, payroll inequality, housing inequality, unfair law enforcement and the list goes on and on. Don't you find it unusual that blacks are the largest yet poorest minority in America? That's not a coincidence and it's not because they're lazy.

You seem uneducated in the realm of racial politics. That's to be expected since this is probably the first you've heard of this. In any country that exhibits a minority of people, how often do you see their political motives realized? It's very rarely. Any leader that rises up for those minorities are quickly dealt with, and those minorities either assimilate, fragment or migrate. African Americans could not assimilate due to the rampant discrimination present in the late 1800s and beyond. They couldn't migrate, because their entire African heritage was lost, and their original home was across the Atlantic. Not to mention, they were poor since they've been enslaved for 200 years prior. So, what could they do except establish their own culture? Which is exactly what they did during the Harlem Renaissance. Each black leader that tried to appear was either killed, mocked or ridiculed. And even if you listed a bunch of females, it was the men who were noticed more. That's simply the world we live in.

Right. Women can be leaders in most genres, but certainly not all. Which is the point I've already made. Women are the leaders for many African American endeavors, but its not enough. Blacks need a male leader, and you can't deny it.

Now, that you were given a pretty good example of a male leader vs a female leader; you do understand that men and women think differently. The majority of men are more logical while the majority of females are more empathetic. There are exceptions, but when speaking for the majority, each gender has its strengths. Do you deny this?

 

Agreed! Faith in atheism has nothing to do with logic.

 

Uh no faith with anything has nothing to do with logic. Faith is pretty much an assumption.

 

We all know what the Bible says. It's dragged up time and again. There's nothing complicated in faith. All you have to do is believe in an invisible/unproveable being. Then you can be indoctrinated - ooops taught the basics.

 

I from time to time have been known to walk into a Church and ask to speak with a preacher. The reason being that I respect them for their altruism and once I filter out the dogma I often find that their is much wisdom to gleam from them. But if you ask them points of dogma they are well versed at giving answers designed to bring you back to the predetermined path.

 

Having been involved with ministers - male and female - over several decades before I became agnostic, working with and for them in ministry, I think I have some idea.

 

But the question is whether you have any idea what good is.