Give some credit to a person that lived and fought this fued all his life, I know who's my enemy and who is'nt, you outsiders are the one's that need to be educated. [video=youtube;DQvULn5Au24]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQvULn5Au24[/video]
That's a good question based on what I just wrote. Because there are many ethical & decent Israelis who work to oppose the Occupation & Right Wing Extremism, my hope rests on what Israel could and must become under a drastically new & different leadership that must occur for Israel to survive this century. I recognize Israel's contributions in the fields of medicine, science, archeology, weaponry & I.T. but, sadly, the value of those contributions is eclipsed, in the world's eye, by the enormities committed by the various Israeli governments, growing number of Hate-Filled, Right Wing extremists & violent, messianic Settlers who make it impossible for Israel to continue to exist under its current norms. Apparently, I'm far from alone as: "Sixteen US intelligence agencies with a combined budget over USD70 billion have issued an 82-page analysis titled "Preparing for a Post-Israel Middle East". [1] Please note the following assessment: [1] “Henry Kissinger: ''In 10 years Israel will cease to exist' l http://breakingdownthnews.blogspot.com/2014/08/zionist-henry-kissinger-in-10-years.html EXCERPT “According to news reports, Henry Kissinger and sixteen American intelligence agencies agree that in the near future, "Israel" will no longer exist. (*)The US Intelligence Community agrees, though perhaps not on the precise 2022 expiration date. (*)Sixteen US intelligence agencies with a combined budget over USD70 billion have issued an 82-page analysis titled "Preparing for a Post-Israel Middle East". (*)The US intelligence report observes that the 700,000 "Israeli" settlers illegally squatting on land stolen in 1967 - land that the entire world agrees belongs to Palestine, not "Israel" - are not going to pack up and leave peacefully. Since the world will never accept their ongoing presence on stolen land, "Israel" is like South Africa in the late 1980s. The report states that the brutality and criminality of the settlers, and the growing apartheid-style infrastructure including the apartheid wall and the ever-more-draconian system of checkpoints, are indefensible, unsustainable, and out of synch with American values. (*)The US intelligence community report says that in light of these realities, the US government simply no longer has the military and financial resources to continue propping up "Israel" against the wishes of more than a billion of its neighbors.” In order to normalize relations with 57 Islamic countries, the report suggests, the US will have to follow its own national interests and pull the plug on "Israel".CONTINUED In spite of Israel's nuclear arsenal & the parasitic influence of Zionist lobbies like AIPAC etc, a growing number of Americans are growing weary of supporting the Israeli Government & its genocidal agenda. Additionally, increasing Russian presence in the Region acts to thwart Zionist Regional Hegemony and appears to act as a counter-balance to US - Israeli ambitions like Regime change in Syria, for example Realistically speaking, Israel cannot support itself and its ongoing, expensive & ruthless Persecution of historic Palestine's native residents without U.S. support. In spite of AIPAC's dominance over US politicians, popular US enthusiasm for supporting Israel appears to be waning and, sometime in the future may cease altogether spelling the demise of Israel as you know it: “81% of Americans Oppose $38 Billion Pledge to Israel” http://original.antiwar.com/smith-grant/2016/09/19/81-americans-oppose-38-billion-pledge-israel/ EXCERPT "A solid majority of Americans would redirect $38 billion the Obama Administration pledged to Israel toward other priorities. An IRmep poll fielded by Google Consumer Surveys reveals 80.8 percent of the US adult Internet user population says they would redirect the proposed spending toward other priorities. - Caring for veterans (20.7 percent) was their top priority, followed by - education spending (20.1 percent) and - paying down the national debt (19.3 percent). - Rebuilding US infrastructure was favored by 14.9 percent, while - funding a Middle East peace plan received 5.8 percent of support. - Only 16.8 percent said the $38 billion of pledged foreign aid should be spent on Israel."CONTINUED It is simply my opinion that Israel cannot continue to exist if it continues its current, bloody & costly expansionist, Rightward Political direction Thanks
Your "keeping the agenda" thing is a statement that Gaza is uninterested in statehood through non-violent means. And, that is NOT supportable. Gaza has always stated that a settlement negotiated by West Bank leadership would be fully supported with the only stipulation being that the people of Gaza get to vote - which has always been the assumption. And, the unification of the government is what gets you the one single head. What PREVENTS having one head is Netanyahu working to prevent that unification. I'm not sure how you don't know that Netanyahu has strongly opposed the unified government of Abbas. He's made that statement in public, calling for the world to refuse to recognize such a government. The idea that he is ineffectual carrying out his desire for that government to die is ridiculous. That unification was a tough direction for Abbas to even attempt. And, it came at a time when the government of Gaza was at a political low point. There were numerous ways in which Netanyahu could either help or work to prevent that government, and he consistently chose the path of preventing it. As for Abbas in Gaza, the very nature of the travel restrictions made it hugely difficult for Abbas to make progress in Gaza. Also, Netanyahu has always consistently undermined Abbas, diminishing the confidence among Palestinians that Abbas could make progress against the critical issues of the welfare and international rights of citizens of Gaza, the ethnic cleansing of West Bank - and certainly in making progress toward nationhood.
I do not agree with you on this AT ALL. I'm positive there have been 75 years of devastating history that has built deep divisions and thought processes I will never fully understand. But, humans are humans. You and I can claim no genetic superiority. And, we know about humans. We know that ethnic cleansing is wrong. We know that military rule by an occupying military is a problem, not a solution. We know that unequal treatment under the law is something that humans fight against even in the face of huge odds and mortal danger. We know that humans will defend their families even to the death. These are not concepts that require some sort of deep academic thought. And, what's going on today totally ignores these truths.
Good post! Gilos says I'll never understand. And, your post essentially proves that, but certainly not in his favor.
Sorry I still dont see how a person can support a state that he thinks was created in a crime and a ppl that he thinks dont belong there, you focus on the 1967 war because that's the UN consensus regarding Palestinian territories but a very shallow dig uncovers your rejection to the whole idea of Jewish state, so why as an Israeli civilian should I make a leap of faith based on such advice ? I expect real changes in the Pal leadership and approach toward Israel to support an agreement, many ppl were wronged or lost their homes due to circumstances or bad choices, an agreement can't be based on one side is right and the other is wrong.
Not exactly, keeping their agenda first means they reject Oslo and the PLO leadership and they insist on changing Israel with thye right of return, that's something the PLO knows Israel will never allow and Hamas disagrees, if yoiu have some linked qoutes for me to say otherwise Ill be happy to read them and be more optimistic about the future. Perhaps they phrased something like all agreements including Oslo should be voted on, from what I know they reject Oslo today, if you got something to show I'd be happy to read. I can't defend Bibi so I'm with one hand tied here, its possible that a real chance for peace was possible at a time he was in charge and he (*)(*)(*)(*)ed it up, I dont know, I know I never saw any evidance of Hamas following the program of creating two seperate states without destroying the essence of Israel. I know Bibi opposed Hamas joined Gov, his excuse was good thou, they have'nt changed one bit and once again I say with hope that if you have something to present Hamas softer side - not their usual demands for peace but accepting the agreements that were signed - Ill be happy.
Perhaps it came out a bit racist to say "Arabic", my intention was in terms of culture not genetic superiority, no western influenced solution ever worked out in this part of the world. From what I heard and read the Pal narrative will never give up the idea of reclaiming all parts on the land including Israel, and Im fine with that as long as we secure an agreement that will keep our intersts as well, I dont think that's possible with Hamas agenda and so Bibi can't be that much of a damage at this time, I do regret we didnt have Obama back in Rabin days thou.
Gilos mistrusts ppl that basiclly rejects his rights while demanding he will give up his advantage based on trust (?), there is no trust. And to be clear, that you approve Israel existance today is not much good when you reject its right to exist, that's the diffrence between a truce and true peace. - Im saying that based on what you wrote on Zionism not because you support a Palestinian state, I support a Pal state too.
That makes at least 2 people that, in his opinion, Dont understand why Israel should have to abide by UN Resolutions, Human Rights Accords, International Law, & Basic Civilized decencies. I do think that Right Wing Zionists attempt to obfuscate the simplicity of the relatively straightforward Palestinian - Israel conflict by attempting to make the conflict seem more complicated than it really is. Briefly put, I can think of no instance throughout history in which an indigenous Population has meekly accepted a foreign Invasion & subsequent ruthless Occupation. According to many Israel Advocates, no one understands that the Israeli Government's Genocidal Agenda as spelled out in the Zionist Plan Dalet [1] is basically OK. The more strident "Israel Avocates" attempt to promulgate the following myths: 1. "Arabs have always been hostile to Jews." - In reality, the very few Jews who lived in Palestine prior to the Foreign Zionist Invasion co-existed in relative peace with their Arab neighbors. The "conflict" is really the natural reaction of any native population to the arrival of militant & expansionist Zionist Terrorist Gangs (Irgun, Stern Gang, Haganah etc) with Israel's mass murdering, terrorist "Founders": Shamir, Begin, Sharon. Please note the following: Top Ten Myths about the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2010/06/17/top-ten-myths-about-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/ EXCERPTS: Myth #1 Jews and Arabs have always been in conflict in the region. EXCERPT "For the most part, Jewish Palestinians got along with their Arab neighbors. This began to change with the onset of the Zionist movement, because the Zionists rejected the right of the Palestinians to self-determination and wanted Palestine. ...British held a commission of inquiry, which reported their finding that there is no inherent anti-Semitism in the country, racial or religious. Rather, Arab attacks on Jewish communities were the result of Arab fears about the stated goal of the Zionists to take over the land. Representatives from all sides of the emerging conflict testified to the (Shaw)commission that prior to the First World War, the Jews and Arabs lived side by side if not in amity, at least with tolerance, a quality which today is almost unknown in Palestine."CONTINUED A second seemingly popular myth: 2. "Israel/Palestine is the natural Jewish homeland" - Only about 2% - 4% of historic Palestine was Jewish until the massive influx of FOREIGN Jews & later FOREIGN Zionist Terrorist Gangs whose stated goals were to expel and / or exterminate Palestine's Native Christian & Muslim population with aid from foreign Zionist / Jewish Organizations around the world. In 1914, Jews comprised only 12% of Palestine's population [2] and in the most reliable British Census & Survey of 1922,[3] Palestinian Jews, primarily from Russia, numbered only 83,794 compared to the combined Christian & Muslim Population of 663,914. In another desperate attempt to claim legitimacy for the Foreign Invasion & Occupation, Israel Advocates frequently refer to Biblical times when ancient Hebrew warriors ruled a small part of the Levant however, today's foreign based Israeli Jews have about the same genetic connection to those Biblical, Ancient Hebrew warriors as the distant Eskimos do. The solution to the current Palestinian Israeli conflict is as simple as it is unlikely to occur in our lifetimes. That solution would require the U.S. defunding of the genocidal, Rogue Netanyahu Regime and the EU imposition of International Sanctions on Israel until the Israeli Government adheres to dusty, old U.N. Resolutions #242 & #338. History has proven that the combination of appeasement & "carrots" are failed approaches when dealing with Ethnic Cleansers & expansionist Regimes like the Right Wing extremists that currently rule the state of Israel & will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.......IMHO Thanks, again, for your kind compliment. [1] "ISRAEL'S PLAN DALET"; THE GREEN LIGHT FOR ZIONISM'S ETHNIC CLEANSING OF PALESTINE" http://www.globalresearch.ca/israels...estine/5326140 [2] A scanned page from Ben-Gurion's book stating that Jews made up 12% of Palestine's population in 1914, the majority of whom were not Zionist 'PIONEER'! http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Articles/Story873.html EXCERPT In 1914 there were 85,000 Jews in the Land (12% of the population of whom 73,000 lived in townsCONTINUED [3] PALESTINE. REPORT ON PALESTINE ADMINISTRATION, 1922. http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/A682CABF739FEBAA052565E8006D907C XVI.--CENSUS "The census results were:-- Moslems ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 590,890 Jews ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 83,794 Christians ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 73,024 Druzes ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 7,028 Samaritans ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 163 Bahais ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 265 Metawallis ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 156 Hindoos ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 1,454 Sikhs ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 408" CONTINUED
Even in Arafat's day solutions were found. Today, Israel demands the right to ethnic cleansing even during the negotiations for borders. The Israeli war on Gaza is going to go on until there is a resolution. Expecting them to LIKE you while you wage war is about the most stupid expectation of human behavior imaginable.
Your second paragraph wasn't even true under Arafat. Going back in history like that is totally irresponsible. You are straining to justify acts by Israel that are obviously not justifiable. The problem is that too much of Israel WANTS ethnic cleansing. They get free property, they get to ignore the law, they don't have to worry about water rights (because they can just steal them), they get the gratification of seeing the fulfillment of religious dreams, and I believe many are quite happy with the idea of making life miserable for Palestinians simply because of race and ethnicity. So, you make excuses for Netanyahu to continue the war on Gaza and to continue ethnic cleansing - leadership for which there is NO valid excuse - certainly not your excuses. Not doing much damage??? You LIKE what's going on!
You don't deserve "trust" when you are committing one of the crimes of the centuries. You earn trust. And, I agree the same goes for Palestine. But, Abbas has proven to be a consistent champion of peace during times when his country is under foreign military occupation, when his people are having their land, homes, businesses, water rights stolen and giving to foreign occupiers who are above the law. Even then, Abbas is considered by the ADF to be their partner in security. I can not think of a head of state more dedicated to peace who has existed. And, I've stated many many times that I fully support Israel's right of existence. Do not make that mistake about me again, please. I've stated support for Israel's existence consistently. I've even stated that I would accept a one state solution (without apartheid, of course). I don't see even ONE case of you taking ANY position that would promote the idea of ANY resolution. You even suggest that the current situation is acceptable!! Arafat didn't sign. Abbas WOULD sign. So, what are you waiting for? I think we know.
And Hamas (*)(*)(*)(*)ed it up back then, I remember, that's what changed my mind about that peace process. Building in existing settelments doesnt cleanse anything but it sure doesnt look good during negotiations, I belive if there will be a serious discussion they will find away to agree on that, you do understand why Israel cant formally agree to that, right ? I dont expect them to like me not during and not after the war, I dont expect them to ever stop hoping a compleate reclaim of the land and Im sure terror will still hit from time to time even after an agreement - I take all these things for granted and I still belive in an agreemnet, but I can't accept these 3 truths AND a compleate withdrawal based on good faith, accepting Hamas as is + some Hudna for 20 years, open borders and heavy arms, no sir........
We disagree. Arabs and Jews been stabbing each other for over a century, the terror and settelments are "one sided" solutions when no agreements were found, none of them is "justified", its just the face of the war. Many settlers see it as fulfillment of religious dreams that's true, about the evil and stanic rituals I leave it to you, what's war without propaganda. I never voted for him and never will, I certainly dont like what's going on, I gave you my reasons not my Gov - those would be much more about rights I expect, and I continue to say that as long as Hamas rules Gaza and PLO is powerless over it, I dont see a chance to an agreemnet and so Bibi is a good match to Haniya. That said, its been a very long time since they shot at us, Erdugan was interviwed last week in Israeli news channel and he said things are cooking over there toward a compleate lift of the seige, so maybe there will be some agreement after all.
Abbas doesnt speak for Gaza and I havent heard a word from Hamas about accepting Oslo or the will to continue that path,they have diffrent ideas for peace, I would support an agreement with the PLO on the WB but its futile without Gaza. Its a fundemental fact to me that the Arabs are not going anywhere so I dont belive in a solution around ethnic cleansing of them from the WB or Gaza areas.
Yes, buying food isn't ethnic cleansing either. But, bulldozing the homes of Palestinians does. So, stop bulldozing Palestinian homes. Yes. Israel can't formally agree to ending ethnic cleansing, because it is free property to them - all they have to do is destroy the lives of the people living there and chase them away. Remember when Netanyahu tried to remove one of the many settlements that he agreed was illegal - back in the Bush administration in his attempt to follow the "road map"?? Well, the Israeli's LIKED their stolen property!! How about offering the deal that was offered to Arafat? What has changed that would invalidate that deal, in the face of now having Palestinian leadership that believes in Israel's permanence and is dedicated to peaceful means as evidenced by working with the ADF for many years now?
Ethnic cleansing is NOT fulfillment of religious dreams that have any right of validity. Declaring it a religious right to steal the homes, farms and property of your neighbors does not make it anything short of a crime. Please tell me Judaism is better than THAT! A hundred years ago? Why stop there? Aren't you POed about the Canaanites anymore? Yes, Israel policy has been growing hate for a long time now. No human being on earth likes to see their people's houses bulldozed and their land stolen. More importantly: If Netanyahu wanted to resolve the problem in Gaza he would promote Abbas. If Abbas had control of Gaza border crossings, Hamas would be defunded and the people would be beholding to Abbas, who would be in a position to make a difference for them. Hamas agreed to the unity government because they recognized they are in an untenable position. Their militant approach has no chance of succeeding, and they aren't stupid enough to fail to recognize that. But, every move Netanyahu makes keeps Hamas in control in Gaza. Netanyahu proves to those in Gaza that peaceful negotiation can not succeed. And, he maintains a state of war. The result is that Hamas is the only leadership that is doing ANYTHING for Gazans. This isn't just my theory - people the world over recognize this problem. It's trivially easy to marginalize Hamas out of existence. Even Hamas is well aware of that. Ending the war (like lifting the seige) must be done through negotiation. Remember the last time Israel walked away from Gaza? Simply walking away leaves the impression that Hamas tactics can be successful. That is NOT good enough. Success HAS TO be seen as coming through peaceful means of how two countries resolve problems between them. Walking away from Gaza would be a huge relief for Gaza, obviously, but it would NOT be the permanent direction that is needed. Yes, Netanyahu probably can't talk to Hamas. But, that just means that it's even more important to promote Abbas or some other leader who has a clear record of exclusive use of negotiation, has the trust of the ADF, and who can agree to methods of continuing to assure a non-violent approach to the future.
Hamas has long agreed to accept negotiations between Israel and West Bank leadership. Negotiations supported by the US have always depended on that. Yes, I was pretty sure you agreed Palestinians aren't actually going to go away. But, they still have a tremendous amount to lose. West Bank is rapidly approaching the point of not being viable. It's starting to look like a northern region and a southern region. And, they have lost much of the Jordon River side and water rights. They have lost significant portions of their capital as time passes. Will they be made whole again? I really don't know where this is headed. It could well end up as one of the signature humanitarian disasters of this century.
