Do Protestants Really Believe in the Bible?

I have...The only substance present while eating the bread and drinking the wine would be bread,wine and the Holy Spirit ..

I understand this but it still counts a a divide (difference) which only leads to more -hence the inevitability of protestantism.

True... which is why the word extends to everyone that will receive it, equally ...

 

Also, Father Mike: To bolster my creds: I wore a Scapular for a short time, but it was too itchy so replaced it with a St. Christopher medal.

And, so YOUR creds as a Catholic of Catholics are....??????

 

Of course only the individual can pass judgement on their own personal faith.

Why do you care so much about the faith of others?

 

I don't need to go talk to a priest everytime I talk to God. Do you pray for others? If you do, then you are acting as a go between.

If you ask me, there is nothing more humble than the Catholic approach to salvation. We don't know if we or anyone else will be saved. That judgement is reserved to God and God alone. You could be a good Catholic all your life, and reject God before you die, and you soul is most likely (*)(*)(*)(*)ed to eternity.

Christ instituted the Church himself. Why do you think he did so in the first place?

Try reading James. In particular James 2:14-24. James 2:17 pretty much sums it up: "so faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead."

Have you ever read any of the Catechism? It contains information on church councils, papal documents, as well as scripture to back up its claims. Anyways, I was always encouraged to read the Bible. Then again, I am not a cradle Catholic. I converted from Presbyterian about a year and a half ago. The funny thing is, I read the Bible more as a Catholic then I ever did as a protestant. Although, this could be due to the fact that I never took my faith seriously as a Presbyterian.

They still are. My view on the priesthood has not changed just because there are a few bad apples.

It was specifically the 12 that Christ commisioned to make disciples of all nations, perform exorcisms, bind and loose, and forgive or retain sins.

Matthew 10:40- "He who receives you receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives him who sent me.

The apostles even have a role in final judgement(Matthew 19:2.

No. Laymen cannot serve the Eucharist. The only time anyone may touch the Eucharist is when they are about to receive it. The Latin Mass is more traditionally minded, and it is common for some tridentine masses to be received on the tongue only. The current Pope is trying to move the Church away from receiving it in the hand.

The Bible speaks of vain repititious prayers(Matthew 6:7). When praying the Rosary, Catholics focus on certain mysteries so that their repitious prayers don't become vain.

 

Jesus is speaking of the spirit's ability to enlighten our minds and human reason's inability to comprehend them apart from faith. This whole chapter is an indication of that. After telling them that the bread he will give them is his flesh, they ask him "How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Jesus actually repeates himself 4 times afterword, but it was too much for the disciples to hear, so many of them just left.

Notice how this is the only part of the Bible where the disciples abondem him because of what he said.

I still don't see how they're related. You could point to the faults of the Church at the time. The Reformation seemed to be more centered on religious reasons, while the eastern split had more to do with authority. Since The Roman Empire fell, Constantinople was viewed by them as the new Rome, giving them authority over all the other Churches including Rome.
Add this to the fact the fact that the Romans and Greeks never got along too well. There was never a sense of unity between the east and west like there was with European Christiandom.

Both protestants and catholics believe in the Holy Spirit as the source of all truth. Only difference is how the truth is known.

 

You force me to articulate a correction. I am not, nor have I ever been a Catholic priest, nor would I pretend to be one. Being a layman, it's wholly inappropriate for you to address me as "Father Mike" and I trust this will be the last time.

 

Jeez. It's Christmas. There is no reason why Catholics and Protestants have to be nasty to each other to get their points across.

 

I don't know that we disagree then. I was under the impression that you were saying that the disciples were to literally eat his flesh/blood.. I know Jesus said that, and I believe he was pushing their faith,that they took it literally, but they didn't literally eat his flesh nor did he intend them to.

I don't mean to point to protestantism so much as division. It doesn't matter the specifics or how extreme the difference, I'm merely saying that the Church was meant to split. Or let's just say that it was inevitable..

It's the same for both in reality.

 

Well, Mike, you seem to have lost any sense of humor, and still ignore my testimony by not addressing my many creds as to what I grew up with and experienced as a 'good Catholic boy.' Self-righteous indignation isnt flattering on you...

Thx, Mr. Con for your thoughtful and deliberate post addressing my experiences growing up Catholic.

I think that many appreciate the Catholic faith for its traditions, pomp & ceremony, and 'measuring rulers' in passing thru the 'hoops' of the sacraments in giving them a certain sense of security in doing the right things. And to me they do not nullify fundamental Christian beliefs but tend to be more of 'distractions' to the basic Gospel of Christ. But as they say, "To each his own."

I have no problem with Catholics if they avow Jesus Christ as their Lord and their Savior (not just as a 'collective'), recognizing His sacrifice and work on the cross as the substitution for their sins. For per scripture, Romans 10:9 (NIV) "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

Just jumped on this Christmas morn to chk e-mails & PM's and caught your well-written, non-attacking post, and do wish you and your family a Merry Christmas, for this season and the next year....OD

 

It's not self righteous indignation, it's tribalism. I've never met a "raised Catholic" who knows what the Catholic Church teaches, and you certainly aren't breaking the pattern either. It's because you assert your childish misunderstandings over the actual truth that you remain closed minded to what Catholics really teach and believe. It insulates you from real Catholicism. I'm glad something sunk in when you were growing up because you still follow Jesus today.

 

Hi SMPT. I am walking into the middle of a fairly heated exchange, and do not wish to fan the fire. My question is simple. You said every Catholic household you enter has a bible in it, and you quote a lot of scripture. What bible do you read? It is my understanding that the official Catholic bible is the vulgate. Now I took close to a decade of Latin over my scholastic career, so I can read it. I began with Latin a lot earlier than most started foreign languages because of the private schools/Catholic high school education I was lucky enough to receive. However... the classes were small. Most took Spanish, French or German.

So... yeah... what do you and your Catholic friends read? And if the book is so fundamentally important to life the universe and everything, why don't you learn Latin like I did, for the same reason?

 

their focus on rich and poor is really good but it is like all other demonimations everyone has their own interpretation no one has it down perfect to stand on higher ground

 

I'm impressed that you read Latin, really... Very rare these day.. But seriously, I really think that's cool.

By the way Merry Christmas Ctrl...

 

Nice to hear your background, Ctrl.

St. Mike never did give me his equivalent "Catholic Resume" as I did mine of 18 yrs, but yours is impressive. I never went to Catholic school as such, other than Catholic summer school. Did you get a chance during your Latin studies to read Caesar's Commentaries, or were they only purely secular Latin studies.

Having 'grazed' past you on this forum and having a general idea of your contempt for religion in general, I will say that Mike had his last sentence right in my case;

So, there is hope for YOU, also.....As the scripture states, Proverbs 22:6 "Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it. "

 

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

I do love Christmas.

 

Oh please. I remember a thread on this forum talking about the "Catholic Priest" that didn't believe in hell and thought all people would go to heaven. He didn't have a Christian tenent in his body. Even I...the protestant that I am... acknowlege the guy was not a "Catholic Priest" in the first place.

And here you are....saying that Atheists and Protestant Ministers are the same thing...or CAN be the same thing.

Get the hate out of your heart. You seem mighty insecure.

 

I did not read Caesar's Commentaries, though my studies were not strictly secular. My later Latin studies, in college for instance, were for the easy A. Like coming from Mexico and taking Spanish. I was also expelled from Catholic HS in my third year due to my, um... "debates" with the priests... so those classes in public school were far behind my level. My resume isn't as impressive as it seems... but I was still steeped in it for that time.

I wouldn't say I have contempt for religion either. I have pet peeves Christians often ignite. This is one of them... not actually reading the book which they insist is accurate and condemns me to hell. If it is as important as claimed... willful ignorance to its contents is likely to inspire some "debate" from me should one choose to push the subject... as they often do... rather piously... with self righteous indignation.

 

Do you remember any of the Catholic 'tenets' that you debated priests on??

The Catholics on this forum dont believe me when I said that I asked a priest the question: "Catholics have to do all the sacraments, and the Protestants dont do them; so, will any Protestants make it too heaven?" The answer I got was ,"Only the real good ones."

 

The Douay-rheims is the most popular, but you'll notice my quotes are most often in the NKJV. The Latin I learned is mostly for liturgical reason. If you read my signature, you'll see I'm not illiterate in Latin, but I can't stop you from drawing your own conclusions, facts be (*)(*)(*)(*)ed.

 

As a Catholic, I use the Revised Standard Version(Catholic Edition). The Vulgate is the official Bible of the Catholic Church. The New American Bible is used for readings in Churches. As someone who used to go to the tridentine rite of the mass quite frequently, I picked up some Latin here and there, never actually educated in Latin though.

 

10 years of Latin sounds serious. Have you studied classics? My brother is working on his phd for classics, and found out he just bombed this big latin exam. Funny, I always thought latin to be an easy language to learn. I mean it is like the mother toungue of western civilization. To be honest though, I am not a huge "language" person. I appreciate the significance of Latin and Greek, but have no desire to study it.

As I just said in my previous post, I use the RSV. I also have the RSV Catholic study Bible. The New American Bible is what Catholic Churches use for the readings.

 

Overdrive is trying to set a different criteria for proving "catholicity" and he says he was an altar boy, catholic educated and blah blah blah. You'll notice I'm not falling into the trap. When it comes to who is a "real" catholic, the better questions are: How long has it been since you've been to holy Mass? Do you observe days of obligation? Do you go to confession regularly? How is your devotional life; do you pray the Rosary or the Chaplet of Divine Mercy? Do you volunteer your time to keeping the Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament vigil?

And more importantly, do you believe, follow, and promote the teachings of the Catholic Church? Do you defend life and work to end abortion and euthenasia? Are you radically counter cultural?

What I'm trying to get through to Overdrive, albeit unsuccessfully, is that a Catholic background is absolutely meaningless unless one lives out their baptismal vows and continues in that tradition. Many people are "raised catholics" but chose to reject their upbringing. They can't come along later and pretend like they're one of us or have standing to throw their "credentials" around in a debate. I've been unsuccessful at getting this across.

 

Mike, you seem really insecure in your Catholicism! I merely discussed my past experiences as being 'raised Catholic' as a boy/teen, jumping thru 'all the hoops' and you seem threatened by them.

You 'measure' yourself by all the hoops that you jump thru in being a 'good Catholic.' [see above post]

And again, Mike, just as I asked that Catholic priest when I was 14 yo, "Will Protestants go to heaven?" what is YOUR answer to that question?! Protestants dont do any of the sacraments other than Communion (where they touch the bread and dont actually consider it the 'physical body of Christ,' and they drink grape juice (aka, 'new wine'); whereas the Catholics deny their congregations the 'blood' of Jesus and serve no wine or substitute). Yeah, I know the Catholic apologetic 'cop out' for not serving wine, "The body already contains the blood,' or the priest drinking it is good enuf---cop out and denial of the whole Communion service!!

Sorry, Mike, but having studied the scriptures over many years, I like BFS and millions of others, have been set 'FREE' of the doctrines & the traditions of men ...you shud try opening your mind & soul to that freedom that Paul talked about when the religious, pious Jews of his time kept spying out his and his followers 'liberty' as followers of Christ and NOT the traditions and laws of religious men....

 

St. Augustine said " that an old schism becomes a heresy." And for many, many years, Protestants were seen as heretics---that would be worse than being an atheist or unbeliever in the kingdom of God!!

But, thk God for BENEDICT XVI ( “Cardinal” Joseph Ratzinger):

http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/christian_brotherhood.php

WAIT!! I thought that Catholic doctrines never change?!!

And so the same question comes up: "Do Protestants go to heaven; and if so, then what do they have to do to get there?"

 

Was your priest familiar with Pope Pius IX's encyclical Quanto Conficiamur Moerore:

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9quanto.htm

Here is a good article on the whole "No salvation outside the Church" controversy:

http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/outside_the_church.htm

Those outside the faith, through no fault of their own may be saved by their own ignorance of the truth.

The Eucharist, after it has been consecrated, is Jesus' body and blood. The Church withheld the cup to reinforce the belief that you did not need to drink the wine to receive the blood of Christ. You get that from the Eucharist. After centuries of people receiving both, it's not all that crazy to assume that some people thought you needed to receive both, simply because you always have. There was also a practical reason. Withholding the cup, also prevented the blood of Christ spilling all over the Church.

Yet, you still have many Bible believing Christians out there that believe drinking alcohol is evil. Jesus had no problem with wine. This is evident in the marriage at Cana, and the Last Supper. Christ himself was accused of being a drunkard. Tradition of man perhaps? What every sacrament of the Catholic has in common with each other, is that it was instituted by Christ himself. I know they may seem like pointless hoops to jump through to you, but the reason for them being there is to help Christians be close to Christ.