Does the earth environment have any advantages over "heaven?"

I just received an intriguing message that deserves consideration:

 

Well heaven is still empty, at least if you follow the bible.
The bible says that it will be decided whether we go to heaven or hell at Judgement-Day, which as you know still hasn't happened. The living and the dead are waiting for it.
Since no decision has been made, heaven is supposed to be empty.

I find this quite a weird idea that people think about heaven. The only way to get to heaven now, is to become a saint. And if you are a saint, your job is being the messenger for the living. You have to go to listen to people praying and then tell God what they want and try to get that for the people - at least according to Roman-Catholic beliefs. I don't understand why that's the saint's job - considering God already knows everything...

 

About four years ago my son and his wife gave me a gift of a book.

I read it....... then read it again.....and then I have read it again and again several times because it did an amazing job of helping me to comprehend the belief structure of my wife who is Pentecostal/ Charismatic.

The book is about a visionary dream of heaven given to somebody in 1995..... and I personally do not have enough knowledge of scripture or spirituality to rule out so much as one paragraph from this amazing book...… I compiled some of the most surprising sections here in this discussion.............


http://www.politicalforum.com/religion-philosophy/365987-story-homeless-man-angelo-rick-joyner.html
The Story of Homeless Man Angelo by Rick Joyner.

This book presents a convincing case that heaven is full of deceased saints........ and it is shocking how humble and open and honest they are with a visitor???????!!!

They told this pastor guy about the worst mistakes that they made while alive....... which is not what I would have expected from residents of heaven?!?!

 

Earth's environment has an single ENORMOUS advantage of heaven's environment.

Its real.

 

Yes.... there is that possible advantage.........… .but another one that I am thinking of is...… What if intelligence first began in fundamental energy......and what if two beings composed of fundamental or nearly fundamental energy......… invested an astonishing amount of effort over essentially eternity in the past....... to make all of this...… What if all that investment of time and energy has made G-d and The Holy Spirit and the Word/ Logos/ The Elohim........so emotionally attached to the creation......… that they may kind of wonder about how nice it might be to get a small break from the astonishing emotional attachment to all of us???!



http://www.near-death.com/experiences/reincarnation04.html#a05

 

I read and reread that post of your's several times now, and I still seem to miss what the message here is exactly.
Did you agree/disagree with my post? Did you find it contradicts what you read in this book?

What you believe heaven to be (or what Christians believe) is usually not what it says in the book they all believe in.

 

What if energy beings don't exist?

Playing "what if", is never ending. It is only limited by the imagination having absolutely no necessity to reflect reality.

 

I assume that you believe in the doctrine of "soul sleep."

I believed in this myself from 1973 until about 1990 when I began to research near death experience accounts.

I no longer believe that "soul sleep" is what the Bible actually teaches in spite of those proof scriptures that I used to use. There are too many other scriptures that will fit so well with the near death experience of Dr. George Ritchie.

http://www.near-death.com/ritchie.html#a05c

…..

Here is one of the major sets of scriptures that proved to me that the near death experience accounts did fit with Christian scripture.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=2Co&c=12&t=KJV

2Corinthians 12:2
"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.


And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

 

Good question…. my minuscule understanding of basic String Theory is that fundamental energy would exist from eternity in the past…. whereas this fourth space - time dimensional continuum may only be about 14 billion years old.

It would be infinitely more probable for intelligence to begin…… and then evolve….in some form of fundamental energy over eternity in the past…. than in our fragile material universe.

 

Actually I am an Atheist, so I don't believe in Heaven or Hell.
I merely answered your question to the best of my abilities according to the bible.

Personally, (if you are actually interested) I don't like the idea of something after death. That makes, in my opinion, life less valuable. Everyone who's got "near death experience" in my mind just has a vivid imagination or a vivid dream and it felt real to them. I sometimes don't know that I'm dreaming, but after I wake up I can still be shook up about a dream. Very few people take those dreams seriously though. But of course there are those who do. I tend to not pay attention to that.

I thought that question was more aimed at what religion says about haven or hell...

 

The name of the theory that pretty much proves that fundamental energy would predate the Big Bang is called The Cyclic Model.

I first heard of it in the chapter of Stephen Hawking's Universe entitled The Anthropic Principle.

In that chapter Dr. Hawking discussed the possibility of a nearly infinite number of universes out there somewhere that were unsuccessful…. in that electromagnetism, gravity, weak and strong nuclear energy were at levels that made life as we know it impossible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_model

Something similar to the Cyclic Model that fits even closer with what Mellen Benedict reports is…..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_inflation

 

Thank you for taking a stab at this mihapiha.

You did an excellent job of appearing religious.

Something intriguing about NDE accounts is when somebody comes back from one and then patents several inventions related to biology that they report were shown to them during their out of body experience.


http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research08.html#a16

 

Like I said, I realize these things happen and some people take it seriously.
To me it seems quite ridiculous. However, if you look at the religious view on the matter, you will find intriguing answers to your questions. Most religions attempt to answer these types of experiences or other forms of dreams. Just to give you another example: In ancient Rome, you were considered a holy person if you got hit by a bolt of lightening and survived. You were given freedom (if you happen to be a slave) and society would take care of you. Now this might seem a little far fetched to today's "NDE-accounts" but it is not that far away as one might thing. After all, people being hit by a bolt of lightening suddenly got more credibility simply because society felt the gods protected that person.
I feel circumstances combined with chance doesn't increase a persons credibility. So I feel that people who are hit by a bolt of lightning or other "NDE-accounts" don't increase that person's credibility and I feel that their experiences -although interesting to read or listen to, are merely stories. Some people choose to then believe these stories. I choose to listen to them like any other dream I or somebody else has.

 

This guy knows what heaven is like HOW?

 

Dannion Brinkley was hit with lightening twice.... while he was talking on telephones...… and he was given what I feel could be the key to attaining genuine peace in the Middle East.

He was shown that a peace deal was coming between the nations of Jordan and Israel that would cause these two nations to become somewhat like one nation............. I have given a lot of thought to that and made some effort to lure some influential people into researching this further...…

http://www.politicalforum.com/relig...s-p-m-brokering-jordan-israel-peace-deal.html

Please pray or meditate on Canada's P. M. brokering Jordan - Israel peace deal?
(post #2).....

Those Romans were onto an extremely important principle with that custom of theirs!

NDErs somehow or another seem to think differently than the rest of us?!

 

If the theory is basically true that intelligence first came into existence if a more fundamental form of energy....... and if this intelligence learned and learned and learned...… and experimented......and designed... and invented from something like eternity in the past..... then that Being.....and/or those Beings/beings...… would probably be scientists/ inventors and educators first and foremost...… and would probably get into religion as a last resort..... and would probably look at religion itself very differently than we low vibrational four dimensional humans do?!


http://www.near-death.com/experiences/reincarnation04.html#a09

- - - Updated - - -

I was going to give my best guess to this but decided to pass this exact question on to him personally. I expect an answer within a couple of days.

 

"Does the earth environment have any advantages over "heaven?" "

it's real in our current perception of reality, heaven is not

 

Gotta completely disagree.

First, the only information we have about what came before the big bang is ... NOTHING.
It is postulated that prior to the big bang, there space, time, and matter did not exist.

Any attempt to explain such is nothing more than a Serious Scientific Wild Arsed Guess (SSWAG).
Any belief in this area is based on faith not science and is equivalent to religious belief.

With all due respect to Star Trek, how could it be infinitely more probable that intelligence would emerge from fundamental energy?
Can't quite see this "fundamental energy being" as anything other than yet another flight of imagination.

 

RC's seem to have made up a bunch of silly things to promote their brand on religion.

 

Did I read part of that correctly?
Dead people were trying to hurt and kill other dead people?

 

I don't follow what you're trying to say here. But I'm going to explain something, in the hope that I don't completely shoot past what you meant:

Knowledge (of any kind) is a natural human desire, because there is a demand to know everything. And a false answer is definitely better accepted than no answer. Think of a 4 year old child who constantly is needling their parents with one question: "Why?" Some questions get answered, some don't. But the questions which are not answered still raise the question "Why?" which the child demands to know. So on some occasions parents lie for comfort and peace of mind just to satisfy the need of knowledge by the child. This very basic example might explain most human's desires for knowledge. It is very hard even as adults in our society to admit to the rest of the society that we don't know or understand something. You rather make something up or have an excuse than no answer or admit that you don't know. Basically unacceptable even for the president to come out and admit that he doesn't know.

At the point where a lack of understanding meets the desire for knowledge often religion of some kind fills the void by explaining it from the supranatural angle. Whether it was a shaman or a sacrifice to the gods or something else, it was always done because a lack of understanding created a demand for answers. In these first humble beginnings primarily questions about nature: "When will winter go away?" "Will we have a good harvest?" "Why is there no food?" etc., etc.

So for example: 1000 years ago God made sure the stars don't fall from the sky, because the "we don't know why stars don't fall from the sky"-answer was not acceptable in society. Today science explains why they don't fall from the sky, so God lost one of his "duties" in that regard. Religion these days as before comes in and answers all the questions at the point were science is still looking for answers. These days "What is the meaning of life?" "How did life start?" "What happens after we die?" etc. etc.

 

Yes........ you read that correctly dairyair........... what Dr. George Ritchie saw happening in the higher dimensional prison environments during his NDE in 1943 corresponds well with what Howard Storm reported was going on there from his NDE in the 1980's.

http://www.near-death.com/storm.html

...…
.....

 

In chapter 13 of "Stephen Hawking's Universe" the Anthropic Principle is explained. Dr. Hawking explains about the theory of an infinite number of possible "unsuccessful" universes perhaps being out there somewhere in which life does not develop due to electromagnetism, gravity, weak and strong nuclear force being at magnitudes different than what they are at in our universe...… which would make the development of life as we know it virtually impossible.

http://www.accessscience.com/content/cyclic-universe-theory/YB090037

 

We are little, insignificant, short lived meat pods. We live on a ball of mud on the edge of a smallish galaxy in some quadrant or other of a universe (of which we know virtually nothing considering that we can only view that universe using a mere 5 elementary senses). We've only been on our ball of mud for a very short time in the grand scheme of things. Our greatest minds can't agree on what everything consists of..strings? vibrations? is the universe a hologram? maybe we're a computer program? are we particles or waves or both? was the universe created by some supreme architect/engineer or did it create itself? If so, why? Maybe the whole thing is here 'just for you'. It is what you want it to be. If you prefer that there is a god that created everything and that there is a purpose for it all and when your moment ends you move on to collect your reward for participating properly, in heaven or participating poorly, in hell. If you elect to believe that the universe popped into existence 13.7 billion years ago, just for the hell of it, and we are here only because some molecules and acids intermingled at the right place and time. then that's what happened.
Bottom line is, we simply don't know anything. Truth is; there was no universe before you came into being and when you go, the universe goes with you. That's all that really matters isn't it?

 

Wow!

Those are exceptionally insightful comments on this question ronmatt!

Back in 1990, when I was thirty and had 17 years of religiosity behind me....... I went through a pretty serious philosophical/ theological crisis.

I came to the conclusion..... that I personally was somewhat like an emotional zombie in comparison to the Creator.....whatever the Creator was really ultimately like.



Gen 6:5,6

¶
"And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.


And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."


Dad had passed on January 1, 1990 and because I had been fasting on Yom Kippur since the late '70's I was wondering if there was hidden treasure in this verse......… that only a volunteer could bring out.............

"but the goat on which the lot fell for Aza'zel shall be presented alive before the LORDto make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wildernessto Aza'zel." (Leviticus 16:10)

.... I am Canadian..... and it is part of our national ethic to volunteer for really scary dangerous missions.... It annoyed me that Barabbas (Bar Abbas, perhaps the great, great, great, great ..... grandfather of Mahmoud Abbas).... had seemed somewhat "drafted" into the role that he played in 30 C. E........


Matthew 27:20


"But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus."

If you are kind of curious, back in 2010 I felt that I should explain my counter offer on the "debt/ guilt of Azazel" here in posts #1 and #4.....


http://tate4centralnova.yuku.com/topic/383/My-correspondence-with-Rabbi

Rabbi ........, linking Jerusalem Third Temple with Grand Unified Theory of Modern World Problems.