Even though 'Race' is A Social Construct, Racism Persists

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by camp_steveo, Apr 15, 2018.

  1. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    yes that is exactly why there are different races.
    well true but that's because we're all the same species. Think of it as analogous to breeds of dog a chihuahua and a Great Dane are the same species they have far more similarities than differences but a chihuahua is not a Great Dane and a Great Dane is not a chihuahua if two chihuahuas mate they're not going to have great dane puppies that's essentially what a race is variances within a species it's just they're naturally occurring they weren't manipulated by generations of selective breeding.


    I would say that that's total b*******. A person who is Asian if they were to breed with another Asian person they wouldn't have a black baby the baby would be Asian and there are noticeable differences they may be more subtle than the difference between a Chihuahua and a Great Dane but they're still there and those differences are genetic.

    again I'm going to declare this b******* because yes you can if we base race on the different genes that evolved differently in different geographical location. Because people from here share these traits into people from their share these traits and they don't overlap those traits are where we come up with race.

    All Race is a variance within species
     
  2. Canell

    Canell Well-Known Member

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    Yep, there are some firms who make good business exploring human DNA and telling people "you are 50% British, 25% Italian, 10% Nigerian, 5% Jewish, 5% Indian or whatever.
    Saying race traits don't exist is kinda foolish.

     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2018
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  3. camp_steveo

    camp_steveo Well-Known Member

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    I mentioned it because you called me a science denier.
     
  4. camp_steveo

    camp_steveo Well-Known Member

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    Already discussed this earlier in the thread. The DNA ancestry services are not all they claim to be.
     
  5. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    So it's a conspiracy to affirm what everyone already knows?
     
  6. Steady Pie

    Steady Pie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Having a degree in science does not prevent you from denying science, as you did when you said race was not real. The science on it is very clear. You are wrong.
     
  7. camp_steveo

    camp_steveo Well-Known Member

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    I have posted links to several scientific articles supporting my position, what have you presented, other than saying that I am wrong?
     
  8. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    'Race is a social construct' means this: your DNA does not determine your behavior. Or, to be more precise, that portion of your DNA that determines your external appearance -- skin color, say -- is not linked to that portion of your DNA that influences your behavior, assuming there is such (and it's a reasonable assumption). There may be a statistical correlation, however.

    Thus, if we take a certain group with a shared genetic inheritance, and find that, on average, they score significantly above or below average on some sort of test of behavior -- we cannot conclude that every member of that group will score that way. (However, it may be more, or less, statistically likely that an individual of that group, selected at random, will have a score closer to the mean for that group, than an individual taken from the whole human population.)

    We may note that a particular group with a particular distribution of DNA tend, on average, to exhibit certain behaviors ... but 'some' is not 'most', and 'most' is not 'all'.

    'Racism' is a vague term, but I take it to mean two things: a denial of the above proposition, added to a dislike of all individuals of a certain genetic background, regardless of their individual behavior.

    Thus, if you are alone in an elevator in your apartment building in New York City, and at one floor, three young Black males get in, even the most self-righteous 'anti-racist' virtue signaller on this forum will, rightly, feel some apprehension -- if he does not know them. But if you feel apprehension, knowing that they are your dentist neighbor's college-student grandsons, then you're exhibiting 'racism'.

    Of course the US is a paradise of racial toleration compared to most of the world. This is due to its particular history and material circumstances, which have been amazingly favorable compared to the history and circumstances of most peoples.

    Racism need not take the form of violent aggression, or any public form at all. The Chinese know they're superior to the rest of us, but they don't let this knowledge express itself as dislike or contempt, any more than you would feel dislike or contempt for your dog.

    If another genetic group does not threaten your own group's domination of its territory, and if it obeys your laws and generally behaves well, your own group's 'racism' toward it will diminish. Witness the Japanese in the United States during, and then after, World War II. (There are some amazingly racist movies and cartoons of the Japanese produced during the war.) Or witness the white attitude to American Indians -- at worst, a slightly amused gentle contempt. But if the numbers were reversed -- if there were hundreds of millions of angry Indians, resentful at the loss of their land, surrounding the US -- then the white attitude towards them would be like the Israeli attitude to the Palestinians, a perfectly parallel case.

    Current white 'racism' in the US is mainly a result of the appalling behavior of the Black underclass, and runs directly counter to the official ideology of the US, which is a generalization of the capitalist view of the world: everyone's a potential customer and/or employee: if you've got the money to buy, or the labor-power to sell, the capitalist loves you. Even right-wing Republicans would love to have a credible Black conservative candidate to represent their Party.

    As the world slowly and painfully knits together, due to the triumphal spread of the capitalist market to every corner of the globe, this capitalist view will triumph, aided by the slow homogenization of culture we can see among upcoming generations. In a hundred years or so, we'll all be Sino-American cultural hybrids, with some Bollywood mixed in.

    It's a rational view, because co-operating in buying and selling things is much more lucrative for most of us than fighting over territory and girls and whatever you could steal after overrunning your rivals. For a few thousand years, if you had a numerous tribe and the horses to mount up a large number of young men, it made sense to invade and conquer your neighbors, rather than walking behind a water buffalo all day. The loot, the excitement, the women!!!

    But in the age of nuclear weapons and God-knows-what-else-they're cooking up, it's no longer a rational behavior.
     
  9. AltLightPride

    AltLightPride Well-Known Member

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    No, it doesn't. "Race is a social construct" means that the concept of race has no basis in biology, that it was purely invented by humans because muh bigotry.

    I don't think your race determines your behavior either, but you don't see me argue that race doesn't exist except in our bigoted minds. That's insane.

    I have no idea why people who think of themselves as "anti-racists" have the most ridiculous, reality denying position you can think of. Don't they know that if you do that then racists will win the debate, right?

    Why are they arguing that race doesn't exist and not that races exist and are equal?
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2018
  10. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't think we're really in disagreement.

    The 'race is a social construct' idea comes from some well-meaning anthropologists in convention some years ago, who hoped to give a scientific underpinning to anti-racist views. It's a shaky proposition on which to base your politics, even if your politics are well-meaning, because -- what if it was NOT a 'social construct'? What if there were very easily-identified genetic differences that made all X's more similar to each other than all Y's? Would that justify X's lynching Y's, or Y's keeping X's out of college or not hiring them despite the X in question being the best qualified?

    Or ... suppose you did an extensive analysis of the DNA of all the members of a KKK Klavern, and showed them that they differed from each other far more than some of them differed from the Black down the road ... that only in the one tenth of one percent of their DNA that controlled skin color and nose shape and hair characteristics, did they share some similarity. Would that change their behavior towards Blacks?

    Fear and distrust and contempt and suspicion towards other tribes may be perfectly justified by past history. The point of modern society is to create an environment where it is no longer justified.

    A Jew who was chased home from school by Irish hooligans shouting 'Christ-killer' is naturally going to have the temptation to brand all the Irish as priest-ridden ignoramuses, even if his rational mind says "They're not all like that". The answer is not to say "None of them are like that", which was false at the time (I don't know about now), but to stop them being like that.

    When you say 'races exist and are equal', you need to clarify something: do you mean 'races exist and the members of those races should have equal rights', or do you mean 'races exist and are equal in all desirable human qualities such as intelligence, law-abidingness, etc'.? Because the latter is so obviously not true that no one will believe you and it cuts across the correct response, which is to say that everyone should have equal rights regardless of what 'their race' exhibits as average behavior.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2018
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  11. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Donor

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    Tell Sirus to look up the character of MLK, and you find he got his doctorate by plagurizing the work of others in his thesis, he stole his "I have a dream" speech from an older pastor, he had drug and drunken orgies with multiple women and frequently beat the hell out of them. Even his own memorial library now admits this.

    It's easy to say anything about anybody- and there is so much BS flying right now that truth is about as common as flying pigs.... and good character truly hard to identify when your judgment is is controlled by talking propaganda peddlers trying to make preposterous lies into credible facts. Too many people now lack the ability to tell the difference.
     
  12. AltLightPride

    AltLightPride Well-Known Member

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    But it had the opposite consequence, since this "race is a social construct" cult mantra associated anti-racism with reality denial, so if anything it helped the racists.

    For me actual anti-racism would be to say that "different" does not mean "superior". Everybody agrees that the concept of race is valid for animals but you don't see anyone say that black-and-white pandas are superior to brown pandas or something.
     
  13. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    show us some modern biologists who believe that the white, black and yellow races are real
     
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  14. Canell

    Canell Well-Known Member

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    If they aren't real, how come a biologist can tell if a person is white, black or yellow just by looking at their DNA samples, not their pictures?
     
  15. AltLightPride

    AltLightPride Well-Known Member

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    Thats a pretty oversimplified view, generally studies of genetic or historic differences between populations show 20-ish different groups. We can argue on how to define race in a scientific manner but the point is that the concept has a biological basis of identifiable populations. Call it "clades" instead of "races" if you want, but it's a real thing not a social construct.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2018
  16. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You can use dna to determine what race one is. So if they deny that then the science of determining what a race is impossible, then of course race does not exist. Now, you can call the various racial traits, based upon genetics as not existing, but you must replace the term race with something the left wing is ok with. We used "gay" a term to denote being carefree and happy to denote homosexuals, and I am sure you guys can come up with a nice touchy feely term to replace the word race. So you should get busy!!

    And I would love to see what new word is coined to replace what everyone with some sense knows as race. Oh, my scottish terrier is not a terrier at all, and certainly not a scottish terrier. You can call him a Great Dane, or perhaps just a canine, or dog? Whatever makes you feel good about it. For this is very important to faux liberals, to feel good about something. And yet they are also such hate driven beings as well. I can, just utter the word trump, and like Pavlov's dogs, the reactions begin. Is this classical or operant conditioning? Can't recall.
     
  17. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If race does not exist, then all of the racial based marketing needs to stop and stop now!! Driven by hate, obviously. Go and sell pomade to white folks and stop targeting the black skinned, kinky hair blacks. A sure fire winner in marketing.
     
  18. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What you have to always keep in mind in this discussion (and by 'this' I mean the 'reality of race' discussion which is held over and over, year after year, and in every existing forum on the planet where politics is discussed), is that we're not talking about some technical issue in evolutionary biology, such as, are dogs and wolves separate species.. It's a highly sensitive, highly political issue, where people get very very emotional, on all sides. This impedes rational thought. In political wars, truth is the first casualty.

    People are very reluctant to apply biological methods for explaining behavior to our own species. We're made by God, after all, and even people who don't believe in God, still retain this assumption.

    And there's a good reason for it: if we are 'only' another species of animal, then there is one less mental barrier to treating humans like we treat animals -- whom we cheerfully kill for our own uses. This was essentially the Nazi approach, not only to non-Germans, but to 'sub-standard' Germans, such as the mentally ill.

    However, you can't fool life.

    In the long run, genetically-transmitted biological influences on our behavior, perhaps differentially distributed among human tribes, and linked to other genes that are expressed in visible differences, will become irrelevant. Maybe those X's with their high crime rates and poor educational attainment really are that way because of their genes, and maybe those Y's with their industriousness and desire for social harmony and higher IQ's, likewise.

    Fine. Our descendants will identify those genes, choose and even improve the alleles that we desire, and all of our descendants will have them. CRISPR is just the primitive beginning of what our great-great grandchildren will be able to do.

    Unless their ancestors, us, still dominated by genes for stupidity and impulsiveness and aggression, manage to so damage the human race that scientific progress comes to an end.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2018
  19. camp_steveo

    camp_steveo Well-Known Member

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    emphasis mine

    I think this is important to highlight because so many progressives and feminists portray the US as a country founded on racism. It is unfortunate because it has generated a lot of resentment.

    That said, there is still a lot of work to be done in the US. We still have law enforcement biases that are akin to modern day slavery, so until that is resolved we will see the prevalence of identity politics.
     
  20. camp_steveo

    camp_steveo Well-Known Member

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    Here is where 'race' was first developed:
    Background of Craniometry
    http://scalar.usc.edu/works/measuring-prejudice/background-of-craniometry


    This is the foundation of your argument.
     

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