Evolution/Mutation at work: Apes have 24 Chromosomes, humans 23

Discussion in 'Science' started by Taxonomy26, Oct 11, 2018.

  1. Taxonomy26

    Taxonomy26 Banned

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    Why do we have 23 Chromos and Apes (Chimps, Gorillas, Orangs 24) if we are more "complex"/"Advanced"?
    Because Mutations sometimes work
    Chromosomes can split of merge.
    And in this case, and it's 100% Demonstrable that Human Chromsone 2 is the merger of 2 Ape Chromos.

    Devastatingly simple and plain to see even for creationists, though there are, of course, Contorted Apolgetics for this Obvious piece of Evo at the usual Bimbo websites (AIG, ICR, creation.con, etc)

    Human Chromosome 2 is a fusion of two ancestral chromosomes
    Alec MacAndrew
    http://www.evolutionpages.com/chromosome_2.htm
    Introduction
    All great apes apart from man have 24 pairs of chromosomes. There is therefore a hypothesis that the common ancestor of all great apes had 24 pairs of chromosomes and that the fusion of two of the ancestor's chromosomes created chromosome 2 in humans. The evidence for this hypothesis is very strong.

    The Evidence

    Evidence for fusing of two ancestral chromosomes to create human chromosome 2 and where there has been no fusion in other Great Apes is:

    1) The analogous chromosomes (2p and 2q) in the non-human great apes can be shown, when laid end to end, to create an identical banding structure to the human chromosome 2. (1)

    2) The remains of the sequence that the chromosome has on its ends (the telomere) is found in the middle of human chromosome 2 where the ancestral chromosomes fused. (2)

    3) the detail of this region (pre-telomeric sequence, telomeric sequence, reversed telomeric sequence, pre-telomeric sequence) is exactly what we would expect from a fusion. (3)

    4) this telomeric region is exactly where one would expect to find it if a fusion had occurred in the middle of human chromosome 2.

    5) the centromere of human chromosome 2 lines up with the chimp chromosome 2p chromosomal centromere.

    6) At the place where we would expect it on the human chromosome we find the remnants of the chimp 2q centromere (4).

    Not only is this strong evidence for a fusion event, but it is also strong evidence for common ancestry; in fact, it is hard to explain by any other mechanism.

    [​IMG]

    [........]
    And much more at Link above

    More below
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
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  2. Taxonomy26

    Taxonomy26 Banned

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    [​IMG]

    Robertsonian fusion of ape chromosomes in Homo

    Humans have 2n=46 chromosomes, as compared with 2n=48 in all of our other closest relatives, the Great Apes (Chimpanzee, Gorillas, and Orangutans). Whereas Chromosome 2 is a single, large sub-metacentric in humans, the other apes have two smaller, acrocentric chromosomes.

    Comparison of banding patterns allows these chromosomes to be aligned, and shows that during human evolution the ancestral chromosomes have undergone an end-to-end Robertsonian fusion to form a single larger chromosome. The gene contents of chimp and human chromosomes are substantially identical [note that the bands are conserved]. Molecular inspection of the area in the human 2q1.2~1.4 region shows telomere-like DNA sequences from the chimp chromosomes, as predicted.

    https://www.mun.ca/biology/scarr/Robertsonian_fusion_in_Homo.html
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
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  3. Taxonomy26

    Taxonomy26 Banned

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    The Great Chromosome 2 Fusion Event
    http://bloodredsun.com/2012/03/04/great-chromosome-2-fusion-event/

    "....One of the greatest and most overt pieces of evidence for this is shown directly in our chromosomes and in the face that we have 46 of them while the other 3 hominids have 48. Now we know that removing an entire pair of chromosome is uniformly lethal. There are no cases where a hominid can lose this much genetic information since each chromosome has too much information in it that is required to create a viable organism. So where did it go?

    Nowhere. It’s right there hiding in plain sight. If you lined up the 24 chromosomes of a chimpanzee and the 23 chromosomes of a human you would notice 2 things: firstly, and most obviously, you would have a pair of chimpanzee chromosomes left over and secondly, you would see that the human chromosome 2 is much bigger than the chimp on. You would also notice that if you stuck the leftover chromosome alongside chromosome 2 it matches almost perfectly. This is because each individual human chromosome 2 is actually 2 ancestral chromosomes stuck together, which explains where all the genetic information went.

    We can see this even more obviously by 3 facts about the chromosomes:



      • The genetic sequences between human and chimpanzees are almost identical and code for almost the identical genes
      • There is an vestigial centromere in the middle of the long arm of the chromosome
      • There are 2 vestigial telomeres located between the functioning centromere and the vestigial one above.
    The the first point, we would not expect the sequences to be completely identical since there has been several million years of separation between us and the other great apes. If you want to look further into this, the topic of nested ERV’s is particularly interesting. For the second and third, what we see are the structural remnants of the fact that the human chromosome 2 previously existed as two separate chromosomes. A centromere is the bit of the chromosome where the 2 arms cross and is very important during cell division when it helps the chromosomes separate. The telomere is kind of like the aglet on a shoelace and is responsible for making sure the chromosome does not unwind or fray.

    Here’ an awesome illustration of this.

    [​IMG]
    .........
    Overwhelming evidence the “missing” chromosome mutated into US.

    `
     
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  4. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    But, but, but, but.............

    God did it.
     
  5. Moonglow

    Moonglow Well-Known Member

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    Really? What page in the book of biology is that one located on?
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
  6. Moonglow

    Moonglow Well-Known Member

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    Mary said he didn't...
     
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  7. Cosmo

    Cosmo Well-Known Member

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    Chromosomes can break apart and they can fuse together. A part of a chromosome can flip around or a part can move to an entirely different chromosome. We see examples of all of these things when we look at human and ape (and any other) chromosomes.
     
  8. Mamasaid

    Mamasaid Banned

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    A great topic, and a great demonstration of the power of science.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
  9. sdelsolray

    sdelsolray Well-Known Member

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    Take some time to read the creationist apologetics, lies and pretend-science they publish concerning this subject. Funny stuff.
     
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  10. Taxonomy26

    Taxonomy26 Banned

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    Evo: Predictable and testable
    3 mins on the Chromosome 2 Fusion



    `
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2018
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  11. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member

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    This data and the background science underpinning it have been available, presented and ignored for quite some time by creationists and evolution warriors. There will be no competent or even remotely useful interaction to be found in this thread either and in fact as we see it will be avoided to avoid absolute decimation of their arguments and "Reputations" due to the integrity and courage they possess. This thread and it's creationist participation is the perfect endgame to the ignorance avalanche spewed forth by the Jesus army.
     
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  12. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Intriguing..... there is an ancient story in The Book of Jasher that would help to explain this......

    https://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/apo/jasher/9.htm
     
  13. Taxonomy26

    Taxonomy26 Banned

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    1. That gibrish doesn't explain anything.
    2. there is no "god" in evidence.
    And I do not want to get in your theology problems, which are ALL myth in the best case, but...
    3. There is no real/extant "Book of Jasher" either.

    https://www.gotquestions.org/book-of-Jasher.html

    ...There is a book called “The Book of Jasher” today, although it is Not the same book as mentioned in the Old Testament.
    It is an eighteenth-century Forgery that alleges to be a translation of the “lost” Book of Jasher by Alcuin
    , an eighth-century English scholar.
    There is also a more recent book titled “The Book of Jashar” by science fiction and fantasy writer Benjamin Rosenbaum. This book is a complete work of Fiction.

    Another book by this same name, called by many “Pseudo-Jasher,” while written in Hebrew, is also not the “Book of Jasher” mentioned in Scripture. It is a book of Jewish legends from the creation to the conquest of Canaan under Joshua, but scholars hold that it did not exist before A.D. 1625. In addition, there are several other theological works by Jewish rabbis and scholars called “Sefer ha Yashar,” but None of these claim to be the original Book of Jasher....​

    In the end, we must conclude that the Book of Jasher mentioned in the Bible was Lost and has Not survived to modern times.
    All we really know about it is found in the two Scripture quotations mentioned earlier. The other books by that title are mere Fictions or Jewish moral treatises.​

    `
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018
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  14. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You could be right..... but whoever wrote it, it is interesting....... and offers impressive
    theories on many challenging questions about the Jewish Bible......
    the author or authors obviously knew their ancient Jewish oral traditions at a level that
    very few modern scholars can come even close to.

    https://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/apo/jasher/index.htm

    An awesome book.... that even hints that humanity got into cloning even before the time of Noah's Flood.......

    https://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/apo/jasher/4.htm
    Mat 24:37

    “But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

    Mat 24:38

    “For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,

    Luk 17:26

    “And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018
  15. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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