Fixing a problem... Ideas on how...Immigration

Discussion in 'Immigration' started by CommonSPaine, May 23, 2011.

  1. CommonSPaine

    CommonSPaine New Member

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    It is basic human nature that when a problem arises, the first thing done is to assign blame. Although it is important to find the source of the problem and correct it, we must not get lost in the battle of blindly assigning blame. Instead we must work towards a practical solution.

    Our problem right now is that people from other countries have entered our country illegally and recieve services of our society with out being a full member of it. By doing so it creates an insecure border, puts a monetary strain on our society, and allows illegal drug trade to enter our country.

    It is understandable that peoples from other countries seek refuge in our country from economic and political woes. This is both the start and much of the history of our nation. Though, till now, people have been entering largely through legal immigration.

    People of other nationalities have the right to come here and integrate and further our society. To do so i believe that we must first find those that are here illegaly and have them either return to their former country or have them go through the legitimate process of naturalization. We must also have our military do the job they were made to do and protect our borders. It is considered an act of war to execute an armed attack against our nation which is what the drug lords have done. Therefore, war should be their just reward.

    I am open to any opinions on the matter. I would ask that comments of hate be left out.
     
  2. kentucky.dandy

    kentucky.dandy New Member

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    Thank you CommonSPaine for making a thread not about complaining or blaming but about disusing solutions.

    I for one fill that having them go through the legitimate process of naturalization if they interred the country illegally is not the way as it still encourages them and others.
    Instead they should be deported first and then aloud to immigrate in the traditional manner.
    Not hold them in camps until we figure out if they make the grade and spend untold amounts of tax payer money to keep them comfortable.
     
  3. Anders Hoveland

    Anders Hoveland Banned

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    I very much disagree. The presence of people from a different ethnicities will have a very negetive effects on the people already living in the country. It is a mistake to be promoting ethnic diversity- it will only result in more conflict. It is best that different ethnicities live in separate societies.

    Japan is an excellent example of a nation that has safeguarded its ethnic composition. I think you need to take a serious look at what all the immigration and ethnic diversity is doing, and will do in the future, to western europe. "Fairness" and "equality to all of humanity" is simply not worth turning my country into a third world country- with all the crime, corruption, poverty, and violence that comes along with it.

    If you want to be "fair" and help the poor in other countries, just give them money and provide health care and education for them in the countries where they already are. Just do not allow them to come here. It would be far cheaper and more effective.

    Just realise that if people like you bring in more immigrants, people like me are going to support racial segregation and ethnic discrimination. And we will fight for less government spending on schools and health care, because we do not want so much of our money to be going people of another ethnicity. More diversity will just create a more divided society.
     
  4. Anders Hoveland

    Anders Hoveland Banned

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  5. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    First and foremost we must acknowledge some facts.

    We need to acknowledge that the US Constitution does not delegate any authority to congress related to immigration as it merely delegates the responsibility of naturalization to Congress. Not all immigrants choose to become citizens. This is understandable because there was no idea that immigration would ever need to be regulated when the Constitution was created. Perhaps it's time for a Constitutional amendment to address immigration.

    Next we should acknowledge that welfare benefits are unrelated to immigration as they are merely a matter of statutory laws that can be easily changed by Congress. For example all welfare benefits can be reserved for US citizens as a privilege of citizenship under the 14th Amendment.

    We should also acknowledge that the vast majority of immigrants come to the United States for work, not for nefarious reasons or to collect welfare benefits. They simply want to work and live with the freedoms we enjoy and they would overwhelmingly prefer to do that legally.

    We must also acknowledge that it's the War on Drugs that creates the criminal activity related to drug smuggling and violence and not immigration laws.

    So what to do about immigration if we accept the above facts.

    First of all we need these immigrants as they provide a valuable work force. This year in Yakima WA, for example, about 20% of the crops went unharvested even though we have about 15 million Americans out of work. Americans simply won't do much of the work that immigrants are willing to do. We want to encourage "legal" immigration and that means we have to dump our existing immigration laws that prevented about 10 million immigrants from being documented immigrants.

    We can also look at the fact that we want everyone in America to speak a common language (i.e. English). I saw a great sign on a Mexican-American food vending truck that said, "Speak English, Live Latin" and I really liked reading that.

    So I would propose three things to achieve this.

    First dump the current quota system that is in place.

    Change the immigration laws to allow anyone that speaks English and has a job arranged in the United States to legally immigrate to the US. They must maintain a certain level of employment to stay. Of note any applicant that has a felony record in their native country would be subject to extreme scrutiny before being allowed to immigrate, Basically not completely excluded but they would have to justify why their criminal conviction shouldn't prevent their immigration (e.g. a conviction for a minor robbery from 30 years ago could probably be ignored).

    Next, as noted, revise our welfare laws so that basically they only provide benefits to US Citizens. It is a simple change. Some benefits could be provided but general speaking financial assistance would be excluded. Take a logical approach to it.
     
  6. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    This is nothing but bigoted racist stereotyping as diversity has so many advantages that it's benefits to society are undeniable. The Hispanic, African, Irish, English, German, Italian, Arab and other diverse ethnic and racial groups that have become a part of American culture represent perhaps the greatest single asset of America.
     
  7. Goldwater

    Goldwater Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This is very simple.

    1. Create an effective border obstacle.
    2. Investigate, arrest, and prosecute employers of illegal aliens
    3. Increase the bandwidth of DHS and immigration courts.
    4. End all public benefits or licenses for non citizens.
    5. After 1-4 are complete, then start the debate about how to legalize the current stable illegal population, or deport them.
     
  8. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    I just read a story on a "border fence" and the fact is that they don't work and are cost prohibitive.

    http://news.yahoo.com/us-builds-sea...RzZWMDbWl0X3NoYXJlBHNsawNtYWlsBHRlc3QD;_ylv=3

    That works out to over $3500/ft of fence that will not stop individuals from going over it, under it, or around it.

    The US-Mexican border is 1,969 mile long and at $3,500/ft for a fence it would cost over $36 billion and wouldn't stop anyone that wants into the United States. On a positive note there has actually been a zero increase and possibly a reduction in the number of undocumented aliens in the US over the last couple of years and deportations of criminal aliens is at a record high.

    I don't believe we should make business responsible for immigration law enforcement. If a person applies for a job and can produce a Social Security card, so long as it's not an obvious forgery, then the employer has done all that is necessary to comply with the law. As long as the employer has a SS number and submits taxes under the tax laws then they have done all that they should be held responsible for.

    I'm not sure what "expand the bandwidth" means but we're currently spending every dollar appropriated by Congress for immigration and we don't even collect enough taxes to do that.

    Yes, certain federal social benefits can be logically addressed but this really has nothing to do with immigration per se. Once agian we're spending more than we can afford on social welfare programs because we don't collect enough in taxation to pay for them so this is a general issue that is only marginally related to immigration.

    If we want to dramatically reduce illegal immigration then first we need to address the laws that create illegal immigration. It's the laws that are the real problem and not an undocumented alien that comes to work in the United States. For example, if we want to end the smuggling of drugs then end the War on Drugs. It does not stop usage, creates crime and costs hundreds of billions of dollars. If we want to stop undocumented workers then change the laws so that they can be documented.
     
  9. Goldwater

    Goldwater Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Okay....you caught me....

    I always lay out that plan when this subject comes up. My list has served me well in instigating conversation regarding the woefull impracticalities, and really outright impossibilities, related to acheiveing the right wing dream of deporting all illegals, and creating a barrier to keep them out.

    Nobody is biting...maybe I should change my approach?...
     
  10. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    Many Republicans have a hard time related to the immigration issue. For example Mitt Romney once employed a yard service company until it was found out that the company employed some undocumented workers. Romney fired the company which took away work from not only the undocumented workers but legal workers as well. Of course the undocumented workers were, along with the rest of the workers, providing a needed service and they were exactly the kind of immigrants that we want in the United States.

    The problem really wasn't that they were undocumented workers but instead the problem is why we'ren't they documented workers? They should have been issued a "green card" so that they could legally work in the United States and the problem was that they weren't.
     
  11. Goldwater

    Goldwater Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Stephen Colbert summed it up well, when he said something like....we all but invite them here to work jobs no citizens would do, then we ask them to leave at the same time.

    What would happen if we eradicated illegal farm labor in California...is that farmers would have to charge more for produce, then California produce would be passed by for cheaper Mexcian, Chilean, or other imported produce. Then we would have lost part of our ability to produce our own food after farmers go bankrupt. Most societies in decline who were unable to produce their own food met with horrible fates.
     
  12. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    In Washington state this year about 20% of the crops went unharvested because there was a lack of labor to harvest the crops. This is very probably because the number of undocumented workers entering the US has dropped to a net zero (i.e. the number of undocumented workers in the US has actually declined in the last two years). There are literally tens or hundreds of thousands of workers in foreign countries that would have loved to come to the United States to harvest these crops but were denied documentation so they could enter the country legally. That really makes no sense and Americans no longer want to do this work.
     
  13. Goldwater

    Goldwater Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I know a person who's family has owned several large farms for generations here in the central valley of California. They used to grow tomatos, and now they grow wine grapes.

    This farmer refuses to hire locals if they apply. He says that the quality of work that locals produce is very inferior to that of the migrants he hires every year. Those wokers come, and then go, and don't live here year round. Nor do they sit on welfare. They take the $10,000-$15,000 they clear during harvest, and go back to live in Mexico. They don't need to be trained every year like new workers would. They are reliable and he says they rarely slack off or are absent. He's hired college kids before and had nothing but trouble with them.
     
  14. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    A good bit of information. In Yakima the growers used to use high school (after school and on the weekends) and college kids to harvest their produce and it worked well until the kids decided they no longer wanted to do "hard labor" to earn money. Why work when the parents will give them money they don't have to work for. Eventually the growers switched to migrant labor but even that has dried up. Perhaps these workers are being employed in California today and not making the trek to Washington.

    In any event the American workforce no longer exists and we're not allowing those that would do the work to enter the country so a lot of the crop goes unharvested. That makes no sense to me whatsoever.

    Why don't we have a simple immigration policy that allows foreign workers a work permit if they have a job? As noted they are not welfare freeloaders as some paint them to be but instead are hard workers providing needed labor for Americans.
     
  15. Goldwater

    Goldwater Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Republicans used to be okay with the concept of seasonal work permits. Reagan was for it. But now, the GOP needed a bogeyman for Jan Brewer to make Obama look weak on immigration. Now, in the interest of not flip flopping, Republicans are stuck with the position that illegals broke the law, and shouldn't be rewarded.

    It's just another example of Washington politicians standing on thier own hands in order to pander to thier consituancy.
     
  16. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    I wouldn't lump all Republicans into this mix but there are certainly some vocal Republicans that fit this category. Unfortunately not only are they at odds with the facts but are fundamentally taking a position contrary to ideals and Constitution of the United States.

    The facts are that, either through circumstance or effective action (probably a little of both), the undocumented alien problem for the United States is actually going down. More undocumented aliens leave the United States than come into the United States today. That is not something they can claim for any recent Republican adminstration. Additionally the deportation of criminal undocumented aliens is at the highest level in the history of the country under Obama. Finally they propose violating the inaleinable Right of Citizenship established by jus soli, which is protected by the 14th Amendment which would violate the very foundation of government in the United States as expressed in the Declaration of Independence where the primary role of government is to protect the inalienable Rights of the People is established.

    They really lose on all counts.
     
  17. puredemocracy

    puredemocracy New Member

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    I agree it would be too costly to build a fence and in this economy the only thing that makes sense is redeploying military personel to the border to help.
    Maybe redeploy drones and other technology as well. Having said that I still think securing the border comes first but doing it with other concrete steps to follow will create the political will to resolve the problem.

    I favor reforming the current immigration system to an employment needs system. Employers post opportunities and chose from a pre screened list of laborers from other countries. They would be allowed in after fluency tests, US history, screening for illegal activity ect. The employer would sponsor them and they'd be given a work visa with a five year path to citizenship.

    After that program is in place, illegals would be given one year to return to their country of orgin and apply for the program. Similarly, employers would be given a one year grace period to replace illegals or send them back and return under the work visa program. Those who don't comply will then be fined.

    After the one year grace period, law enforcement would deport anyone who is not in the program or a direct dependant and family member of one who is.

    This process, clearly defined from the outset gives those here a chance at citizenship if they follow the new rules, returns law and order to our immigration system and ups the anti for those seeking to come here. Employers have time to comply and in five years with ramped up law enforcement we can be back to being a nation of laws.

    Any part of this process not set forth right from the begginning will have the whole thing fall apart or time to draw a line in the sand!
     
  18. GeneralZod

    GeneralZod New Member

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    How many do seek 'refuge'

    This is a political excuse often used by the uk goverment or anti immigration groups to justify policies. Yet the numbers of these people fleeing persecution is a tiny minority.
     
  19. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    The OP suggested we address the problem and not the symptons of the problem. If the problem is resolved then the symptoms go away.

    The problem is the immigration laws. We know we have several million undocumented and illegal aliens in the United States that are gainfully employed and are not in the United States for nefarious reasons. If we would have had rational immigration laws they would not be undocummente or illegal aliens in the first place. The work existed and they were the people that were best suited to do the work. They should not be ejected from the country simply because of our mistake in creating immigration laws that prevented them from coming here legally in the first place.

    Many worry about "securing our border" but this overwhelmingly relates to stopping individuals that should be allowed to cross legally in the first place.

    I would cite two actual issues related to illegal crossing of the US borders and one footnote starting with the footnote.

    Roughly 40% of those in the United States are "undocumented" and are not illegal aliens in the United States. Illegal alien refers to an individual that entered the country illegally and it is a criminal offense. Undocumented alien refers to an individual that entered the US legally and then, due to "documentation" issues predominately expired visas, is still here and it is a civil, not a criminal offense.

    With that in mind we are concerned with those that cross the US borders for the purpose of conducting criminal acts. This falls into two primary categories:

    Drug trafficing. As all Americans should know prohibition leads to violence and the violence related to drug trafficing is well documented. In short we, America, create the problem of violence based upon laws of prohibition.

    Terrorism. We don't want to allow terrorists to sneak in across the US borders.

    We know that in the first case of drug trafficing it only represents a very small percentage of those that cross the border.

    In the second case of terrorism there have been no known cases of terrorists attempting to illegally cross the US border to my knowledge. It is a potential problem but not a historical problem.

    So back to the pragmatic solutions.

    First of all those that are already in the US that, because of documentation issues or the current immigration laws, are not legally documented aliens but are working and contributing to the US economy should be documented. They may or may not desire a path to citizenship but that path should be created. They are not a problem that we should be concerned with because if we had rational immigration laws they would all be documented aliens today. They're not "illegal" aliens by choice but instead because we wouldn't allow them to be legal aliens.

    Next fix the immigration laws. Myself and a couple of others have mentioned two criteria that are fair and that don't impose an unnecessary hardship for those seeking to come to the United States. Require a minimum standard of English skills and have reasonable requirements related to employment. Those should be the only criteria with the sole provisions to deny immigration for those that would come to the US for nefarious purposes.

    With that simple revision to the immigration laws perhaps 99% of all illegal border crossings are eliminated. Because those that want to come here to work would be allowed to do so legally the only one's left illegally crossing the borders are those that would do so for criminal purposes. Instead of border security trying to address tens of thousands or millions of people over time it would only have to potentially address thousands and the actual requirements for border security would be far less than what we have today. Instead of a focus on capturing "good guys" which are the overwhelming concern of border security today it could focus on capturing the "bad guys" that we do want to keep out of the country.

    Of course if we repealed the drug prohibition laws that would end the drug trafficing problem and we'd only be left with a "potential" problem related to terrorists. As noted the drug trafficing problem is one that we created and it has done nothing to reduce illegal drug usage but has certainly created extreme violence which is the real problem.
     
  20. Shiva_TD

    Shiva_TD Progressive Libertarian Past Donor

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    This statement is false but not for the reasons most might expect.

    The basic assumption has to be that all expendatures by government are for the benefit of the people. This includes all Local, State and Federal expendatures. We may not agree with the expendatures but the intent of the expendature is to provide benefits to the People.

    Just addressing Federal expendatures the US government is spending between $25,000 and $30,000 per household (and it's going up) and unless a household pays the $25,000 to $30,000 in combined taxes each year they are not paying for "what they get in benefits" from the government. The average household is no where near paying this amount in taxation.

    Many only want to refer to "welfare" type benefits when addressing immigrants, whether illegal, undocumented, or legal. Studies related to this often limit the "source of taxation" and the "type of expendature" and these number are selective, misleading and inaccurate. When "all taxes" and "all expendatures" are addressed the majority of American households are no where near "paying their own way" but most simply ignore this fact.
     

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