Germany's response to Nazism on trial as man, 93, faces 300,000 charges

To come to the conclusion. In Berlin is a "Wannsee Conference Museum" where 5 school classes per day have to inspect the paper and have to learn the (fairy) tale (unnecessaryto say that "Haavara" is a word nearly unknown in Germany). I cannot do anything against events which happened 80 years ago. The indoctrination of school children however happens in the very present time. Children trust their parents and their teachers. The misuse of that confidence is a shame and something I cannot tolerate. Indoctrination removes the "free will of the voter", which is the basic concept of democracy. Therefore from my personal view the trial of a 93-year old anabiotic is just another publicity stunt in a state which is far away from being free or any kind of democracy. Those running this state should better look into the mirror instead of complaining about Nazis. That is the most important point today's schoolchildren should learn.

 

It has been kept in the protocol this way and actually a lot of other inconsistencies were kept in the Wannsee protocol. In historical methodology, by the way, mistakes and inonsistencies - especially in the language, of which there are many in the Wannsee Protocol - are not arguments against but actually rather arguments for the authenticity of historical documents.

According to my information, this is entirely wrong. Transfers under the Haava'ra Agreement lowered in already by 1937 and virtually ceased after the beginning of the war 1939. The agreement was officially abandoned in 1941; the Wannsee Conference took place in 1942. As far as I know, this is also the info that you could derive from the book that you have linked to.

I don't really know what 'assets' you are talking about here. The 140 Million Reichsmark were the estimated total amount transfered by Jews to one of the transfer banks and later used by Palestinian importers in terms of the agreement, so that Jews who emigrated to Palestine were able to have money for a living there. It was a foreign exchange deal. There were never 140 Million Reichsmark accounts in assets. The money was gone and in posession of the estimated 50,000 Jews who made use of the agreement until 1939 and now live in Palestine. This is another info that you could have taken from the book you linked to.

Secondly, it is not said - and actually very unlikely - that the protocol of the Wannsee conference is a complete protocol of all the talk that the conference has been dealing with. The protocol was a summary of the results, not a chronological listing of the discussed points. In fact, witnesses during the trials in Nürnberg have stated that the Wannsee Conference protocol was later heavily edited in order to tone down the language and that the contents of the protocol were in heavy discussion with stenography team.

A lot of accusations have been made against the authenticity of the Wannsee Protocol, indeed. Most, not all of them have successfully been refuted. What could never be explained by those people making objections on the authenticity of the protocol, is that if the Wannsee Protocol was a forgery, why its authenticity has not been questioned by those people who were actually there. Especially Eichmann, during his trial, has confirmed the content of Wannsee conference protocol, so has Kritzinger during the Nürnberg hearings.

It is interesting in this context that you want to discuss the 10% of the things that seem implausible to you and use these 10% in order to deny the other 90% which no reasonable mind can deny. Then again, you refuse to do proper research on even those things which you bring into the discussion yourself.

That many people in Germany don't know about the Transfer-Agreement and other historical details is quite true and very regrettable, since it allows obscure holocaust deniers to use those lesser known historical facts in order to spread blatant lies about the events.

By the way - because you are talking about the Jews in Palestine. Just as few Germans know about Hitlers collaboration with the Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini and the Einsatzgruppe Ägypten. There is much evidence that only shortly after the Wannsee Conference, Hitlers genocidial plans already included the annhilation of the Jews in Palestine. Talking about Haavara with regard to the Wannsee Conference is therefore a notion not completely without a certain ahistorical cynism.

 

Probably many people don't know that the SS had 3 schools for Islamic Field Clerics, so called "mullah schools", 2 in Dresden, one in Guben. About Haavara I refuse to discuss until you have read the book. In addition it is not necessary to discuss it. The intention was to remove a certain group of Germans (Jewish Germans) from their home country. That is a pogrom, it is racist and it is crime against humanity. "Haavara" is only one of the many examples, that the story being told to people is 1. incomplete and 2. partially fabricated. And those who fabricate those stories cannot expect that people trust them, no matter how many dodderers they drag into court. If an incomplete or partially fabricated agenda is "offenkundig" in this very same court and must not be denied or discussed, "justice" is everything but just.

http://pamelageller.com/2010/12/the-ss-mullah-school-dresden-and-islamic-anti-semitism.html/

One more example: Look into the link below and tell me, how much you knew about it.

http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/article/Eugenics-and-the-Nazis-the-California-2549771.php

 

Just one question:
In 1927 the US Supreme Court in Buck vs. Bell ruled: It is better for all the world if, instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. .....Three generations of imbeciles are enough.


That ruling was used by the Nazis to advertize race hygiene in Germany

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/274/200

Nazi germany was the 33rd state world wide to have race hygiene laws to protect the blond and blue eyed arian master race. Behind. California, Canada, Switzerland, Sweden and 27 US States.

From the SF-Gate-Link above.

In 1934, as Germany's sterilizations were accelerating beyond 5,000 per month, the California eugenics leader C. M. Goethe, upon returning from Germany, ebulliently bragged to a colleague, "You will be interested to know that your work has played a powerful part in shaping the opinions of the group of intellectuals who are behind Hitler in this epoch-making program. Everywhere I sensed that their opinions have been tremendously stimulated by American thought . . . I want you, my dear friend, to carry this thought with you for the rest of your life, that you have really jolted into action a great government of 60 million people."

That same year, 10 years after Virginia passed its sterilization act, Joseph DeJarnette, superintendent of Virginia's Western State Hospital, observed in the Richmond Times-Dispatch, "The Germans are beating us at our own game."



In 1942 the US Journal of Psychiatry claimed to exterminate psychically "abnormal" children and wrote, that feelings of the parents of those children towards their children would be an own psychiatrical disease.

www.brown.uk.com/teaching/HEST5001/joseph.pdf

So, punishing a 93 year old man to have participated in a program, which had been developed in the best known of all democracies (USA), confirmed to be legal procedure by the Highest Court of that Country (US Supreme Court) and claimed (in a different form) by a scientific journal, therefore even regarded to be ethical, are you sure to have caught the right one?

 

The book at hand states:

And then, in September 1939, Germany invaded Poland. The Second World War had begun. Great Britain's mandated territory Palestine was forced to break all relations with Germany. The upheaval in Europe also forced the rupture of the other transfer agreements, most of them even before they began. Germany rolled through Europe, conquering or establishing puppet states with little difficulty. Its first order of business after every conquest was to ghettoize the Jews and then deport them to concentration camps where they were worked as slaves, often until death. At some point, too many Jews came under German jurisdiction. They could not be efficiently transported, housed, and worked in labor camps. Efforts were made to send them to Palestine via underground Zionist rescue routes. The Gestapo, working with elite Zionist rescue units known as Mossad, dispatched Jews in trucks, rickety ships, and on foot via Turkey, Bulgaria, and Rumania. When Britain would accept no more and the Zionist solution was no longer viable, a new solution was needed. In vast killing factories the Jews would be gassed and cremated. The names Auschwitz and Treblinka were added to the memory of man. This would be the Final Solution.
Six thousand per day went to Auschwitz alone. Some were fooled. Most knew. The world outside began to suspect. Newspapers reported the existence of the killing camps, front-page cartoons depicted the Angel of Death standing over the Jews of Europe, and the clouds over the world darkened with the smoke of incinerated human beings.
The struggle for a Jewish Homeland now entered a new and ever more painful phase. Without the transfer machinery, Zionist rescue committees were forced to pick and choose who would live and who would die. They could not save everyone in every place. Emphasis was placed on the young and the strong, who could survive the taxing journey to Palestine, often in the bottoms of leaky barges, squeezed between a cold, slimy wall and a grim, hungry comrade. They were also chosen for their ability to survive in a beloved but hostile land, wracked by desert heats, Arab enemies, and British masters. Last but not least, they were chosen to become a new breed of Jew that would never stand before a pit waiting for the bullet to arrive, never stand in a line waiting for a man with white gloves to send some to the left and some to the right—they would never stand and wait for destruction. They would fight first.
[...]
In the period between late 1933 and 1941, over $30 million had been transferred directly via Haavara. Perhaps another $70 million had flowed into Palestine via corollary German commercial agreements and special international banking transactions, this during a period when the average Palestinian Jew earned a dollar a day. Some of Israel's major industrial enterprises were founded with those monies, including Mekoroth, the national water-works; Lodzia, a leading textile firm; and Rassco, a major land developer. And vast quantities of material were stockpiled, including coal, irrigation pipes, iron and metal products for companies and enterprises not yet in existence.​

Your second source states:

It is estimated that some 140 million German marks were transferred by this mechanism to Palestine until the outbreak of World War II in September 1939.​

So far your own sources about 140 Million RM on German accounts and the Haavara being in "full swing" in 1942, which are completely fabricated claims.

In addition to that, my source states:

Der Ausbruch des zweiten Weltkrieges im September 1939 verursachte den Abbruch aller Beziehungen zwischen Palästina, einem englischen Mandatsgebiet, und Deutschland und damit auch das Aufhören jeglichen Waren- und Zahlungsverkehrs zwischen beiden Ländern. Bei den deutschen Behörden bestand nach Kriegsausbruch zunächst die Neigung, den Haavara-Transfer fortzusetzen. [...] Dann kam im November 1939 innerhalb der allgemeinen deutschen Kriegsgesetzgebung das Verbot, Devisen an das feindliche Ausland zu zahlen (im Runderlaß Nr. 130/1939 des Reichswirtschaftsministeriums). Dies und die Einbeziehung von Palästina in die Kriegsorganisation des britischen Empire machten die Fortsetzung des Warenverkehrs und der Verbindung der Paltreu mit der Haavara unmöglich. [...] Nach Kriegsausbruch hat die Paltreu bis März 1940 etwa RM 250000, die von in Deutschland verbliebenen Juden eingezahlt worden waren, an diese zurückgezahlt. [...] Der 31. Dezember 1940 wurde als Schlußtermin der Abwicklung des Transfers betrachtet und durch Rundschreiben vom 16. Februar 1941 wurde allgemein bekanntgemacht, daß die Tätigkeit der Haavara beendet war.

Feilchenfeld, Werner, Dolf Michaelis, and Ludwig Pinner. Haavara-Transfer nach Palästina und Einwanderung deutscher Juden 1933-1939. Vol. 26. Mohr Siebeck, 1972.​

But let us come back to your original claim, since it contains some truth and some severe misunderstaning of the Wannsee Conferene Protocol (which actually DOES talk about the Haavara agreement). It is true - and so does my source say - that there was indeed an untransferred amount of money on the accounts of the two Jewish banks Warburg and Wassermann, which was confiscated in 1941 (the amount was far less than 140 Million RM, though, rather half of it). The problem about this money, as indicated also by the text of the Wannsee Conference Protocol, is that it was not in foreign currency. The foreign donations are mentioned here in this passage, since the people who were responsible fot the Haavara transfers did not have any more possibility to exchange the Reichsmark for foreign exchange (i.e. British Pound).

This is the complete quote of the relevant passage:

By order of the Reich Marshal a Reich Central Office for Jewish emigration was set up in
January 1939 and the Chief of the Security Police and SD was entrusted with the
management. Its most important tasks were
a) to make all necessary arrangements for the preparation for an increased
emigration of the Jews,
b) to direct the flow of immigration,
c) to hurry up the procedure of emigration in each individual case.
The aim of all this being that of clearing the German Lebensraum of Jews in a legal way.
All the Offices realized the drawbacks of such enforced accelerated emigration. For the time
being they had, however, tolerated it on account of the lack of other possible solutions of the
problem.
The work concerned with emigration was, later on, not only a German problem, but also a
problem with which the authorities of the countries to which the flow of emigrants was being
directed would have to deal. Financial difficulties, such as the demand for increasing sums of
money to be presented at the time of the landing on the part of various foreign governments,
lack of shipping space, increasing restrict ion of entry permits, or canceling of such,
extraordinarily increased the difficulties of emigration. In spite of these difficulties 537 000
Jews were sent out of the country between the day of the seizure of power and the deadline
31 October 1941. [...]
The Jews themselves, or rather their Jewish political organizations financed the emigration.
In order to avoid the possibility of the impoverished Jews staying behind, action was taken to
make the wealthy Jews finance the evacuation of the needy Jews, this was arranged by
imposing a suitable tax, i.e. an emigration tax which was used for the financial arrangements
in connection with the emigration of poor Jews, and was worked according to a ladder
system.
Apart from the necessary Reichmark-exchange, foreign currency had to be presented at the
time of the landing. In order to save foreign exchange held by Germany, the Jewish financial
establishments in foreign countries were – with the help of Jewish organizations in Germany
– made responsible for arranging for an adequate amount of foreign currency. Up to 30
October 1941, the foreign Jews donated approx. $ 9,500,000.​

Please read the passage carefully, if necessary in German original. The passage talks about the fact that "foreign currency had to be presented at the time of the landing." which implies that the money itself was not the main problem. And that is quite correct in this context: After war began, it was hardly possible to simply exchange millions of Reichsmark into British Pounds, and since the leaders of the Ministry of Finance did not want to weaken the German foreign exchange deposits, they were dependant on collecting foreign exchange from foreign countries. The whole process, which involved the collection of foreign currency also by Chase and J Henry Schroder is described very detailed in my source.

I conclude that contrary to your statement, the Wansee Conference Protocol implicitly mentions the previous efforts made within the Haavara agreement in order to enforce the emigration of the Jews. In fact, it paraphrases them very accurately and lists the problems of this approach in the time after the war had started.

Every 'example' you've been giving in the course of discussion up to this point has collapsed like a relatively weak house of cards. So far, I can only acknowledge that you do exactly what you accuse others of: Make up a story based not on historical facts but on fabrications.

 

Apart from the matter that this statement is preposteriously tendentious, I am of the opinion that moral relativism doesn't actually bring us very far.

Actually, I think that we are doing Oskar Gröning a favour by giving him the opportunity to talk about his experience in front of a court. In several occasions, he has made clear that one of his intentions to publicly talk about his role in Auschwitz, is to refute people who still deny the existence of the gas chambers today. In fact, the court hearing that we witnessed in the Gröning trial is different from the other ones, since it puts the perpetrators and the victims into a real discourse. And that's exactly why holocaust deniers all over the world have such objections against it.

 

From Lenni Brenner, Zionism in the Age of the Dictators:
..Meanwhile, the British government imposed ever more drastic restrictions on Jewish immigration into Palestine in 1937, 1938 and 1939. In response, the SS security service concluded a secret alliance with the clandestine Zionist agency Mossad le-Aliya Bet to smuggle Jews illegally into Palestine. As a result of this intensive collaboration, several convoys of ships succeeded in reaching Palestine past British gunboats. Jewish migration, both legal and illegal, from Germany (including Austria) to Palestine increased dramatically in 1938 and 1939. Another 10,000 Jews were scheduled to depart in October 1939, but the outbreak of war in September brought the effort to an end. All the same, German authorities continued to promote indirect Jewish emigration to Palestine during 1940 and 1941. 30 Even as late as March 1942, at least one officially authorized Zionist "kibbutz" training camp for potential emigrants continued to operate in Hitler's Germany.....

From the link below:

Between 1933 and 1941, some 60,000 German Jews emigrated to Palestine through the Ha'avara and other German-Zionist arrangements, or about ten percent of Germany's 1933 Jewish population. (These German Jews made up about 15 percent of Palestine's 1939 Jewish population.) Some Ha'avara emigrants transferred considerable personal wealth from Germany to Palestine. As Jewish historian Edwin Black has noted: "Many of these people, especially in the late 1930s, were allowed to transfer actual replicas of their homes and factories -- indeed rough replicas of their very existence."

The total amount transferred from Germany to Palestine through the Ha'avara between August 1933 and the end of 1939 was 8.1 million pounds or 139.57 million German marks (then equivalent to more than $40 million). This amount included 33.9 million German marks ($13.8 million) provided by the Reichsbank in connection with the Agreement.41

Historian Black has estimated that an additional $70 million may have flowed into Palestine through corollary German commercial agreements and special international banking transactions. The German funds had a major impact on a country as underdeveloped as Palestine was in the 1930s, he pointed out. Several major industrial enterprises were built with the capital from Germany, including the Mekoroth waterworks and the Lodzia textile firm. The influx of Ha'avara goods and capital, concluded Black, "produced an economic explosion in Jewish Palestine" and was "an indispensable factor in the creation of the State of Israel."

The Ha'avara agreement greatly contributed to Jewish development in Palestine and thus, indirectly, to the foundation of the Israeli state. A January 1939 German Foreign Office circular bulletin reported, with some misgiving, that "the transfer of Jewish property out of Germany [through the Ha'avara agreement] contributed to no small extent to the building of a Jewish state in Palestine."

Former officials of the Ha'avara company in Palestine confirmed this view in a detailed study of the Transfer Agreement published in 1972: "The economic activity made possible by the influx German capital and the Haavara transfers to the private and public sectors were of greatest importance for the country's development. Many new industries and commercial enterprises were established in Jewish Palestine, and numerous companies that are enormously important even today in the economy of the State of Israel owe their existence to the Haavara."

Dr. Ludwig Pinner, a Ha'avara company official in Tel Aviv during the 1930s, later commented that the exceptionally competent Ha'avara immigrants "decisively contributed" to the economic, social, cultural and educational development of Palestine's Jewish community.

The Transfer Agreement was the most far-reaching example of cooperation between Hitler's Germany and international Zionism. Through this pact, Hitler's Third Reich did more than any other government during the 1930s to support Jewish development in Palestine

http://www.rense.com/general34/zand.htm

The Haavara Transfer Agreement concluded in 1933 permitted German Jews who wished to emigrate to Palestine under the capitalist category to take along up to $5,000. In March 1936, the International Trade and Investment Agency (Intria), was established in London in an attempt to stimulate the emigration of German Jews to Palestine and to enlarge the transfer possibilities. The Zentral Auschuss played an active role in the undertaking. In May 1938, the Transfer Agreement was extended to permit the sending of benevolent remittances to Germany and Austria at a favorable rate.The arrangement remained in effect until mid-1941.

http://archives.jdc.org/explore-the...new-york-office/1933-1944/subcollection4.html


To me it is very unlikey that the privious efforts and experiences were not mentioned during the discussion. That the Haavara Agreement is contained in the text example given by parametheus requires a lot of fantasy, fantasy German bureaucrats don't have.

 

Just give me a little break.

Your source is a member of the NSDAP/AO, which is the self-proclaimed "largest supplier of National Socialist propaganda material in the world" (cf. nsdap.info)?

I mean - just - seriously?

Even more than that, the only reference given by your Nazi-source is the book that I already mentioned. The book was written in the 1970s. It's all no new info. You, as well as Edward Black and all the others you mention, are 40 years too late to tell an "untold" story. That the National Socialists supported the emigration of Jews until 1940 is nothing new. The plan for the genocide was decided in Fall 1941, even before the United States officially entered the Second World war. The clearest indication is the emigration ban by Heinrich Himmler from 23rd of October 1941. From that date, they didn't want to have them out anymore. They wanted them dead.

I know primary sources are not so much your thing, but they're actually the stuff that matters.

It doesn't require phantasy, it requires the ability to understand what's written there.

What requires phantasy is the assumption that all of the Holocaust survivors were having the same hallucinations independently from each other, that all of the Nazis were mind-controlled before their court sessions or that all the people who read the Nazi newspapers in 1944 were abducted by aliens, implanted the memory of reading them and that those newspapers were then retrospectively fabricated by the victors in order to perfectly deceive the whole world.

 

300,000? What kind of loons could come up with that many?

What a bunch of maniacs. The sooner they are locked up the better.