Gun rights infringement?

Discussion in 'Gun Control' started by Ronstar, Oct 18, 2017.

  1. Reality

    Reality Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2014
    Messages:
    21,660
    Likes Received:
    7,723
    Trophy Points:
    113
    infringement has a definition.
     
  2. Reality

    Reality Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2014
    Messages:
    21,660
    Likes Received:
    7,723
    Trophy Points:
    113
    So you want them to register twice? Are they on double secret probation Dean? Is this animal house?
     
  3. Reality

    Reality Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2014
    Messages:
    21,660
    Likes Received:
    7,723
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Except they shouldn't be able to do any of those things because they lack a police power
     
  4. Reality

    Reality Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2014
    Messages:
    21,660
    Likes Received:
    7,723
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You did
     
  5. Reality

    Reality Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2014
    Messages:
    21,660
    Likes Received:
    7,723
    Trophy Points:
    113
    And the BOR lays out rights they absolutely DO NOT have, regulation of arms being one of them.
     
  6. Reality

    Reality Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2014
    Messages:
    21,660
    Likes Received:
    7,723
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Federal? Absolutely there is see 2a. State? See 14th amendment and incorporation.
    You can't have it both ways.
     
  7. Reality

    Reality Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2014
    Messages:
    21,660
    Likes Received:
    7,723
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Local and state laws pre incorporation of the BOR by the 14th amendment. Post incorporation the same proposition that applies to the feds regarding arms (hands off) now also applies to the states.
     
  8. Reality

    Reality Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2014
    Messages:
    21,660
    Likes Received:
    7,723
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Depends. They have the interstate commerce clause but how that is used now is not how it was written or intended by the Founders. The powers you're talking about don't come out until West Coast Hotel v Parrish and Wickward v Filburn in the 30's and 40's respectively.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2017
  9. Max Rockatansky

    Max Rockatansky Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2013
    Messages:
    25,394
    Likes Received:
    8,172
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Dude, do you believe the Constitution gives us our rights? Sorry, but the Constitution limits the Federal government not the other way around.
     
    Hotdogr, Turtledude and Reality like this.
  10. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2013
    Messages:
    93,462
    Likes Received:
    14,676
    Trophy Points:
    113
    "rights" are nothing but societal and human construct
     
  11. Max Rockatansky

    Max Rockatansky Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2013
    Messages:
    25,394
    Likes Received:
    8,172
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Nice waffle. Now, please answer the question: Does the Constitution give people rights or does it limit government powers?
     
    Turtledude likes this.
  12. DoctorWho

    DoctorWho Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2016
    Messages:
    15,501
    Likes Received:
    3,740
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No,
    Rights are a fundamental way of life, completely independent of society and would still apply to the lone survivor on a desert island.

    Self defense is one such issue, survival, procreation, a Government can be corrupted by despotic men as can society and anything humans contruct or devise, the Nazis did that, they remade society to suit their evil purposes and plans.

    Wise men must know and understand what is just and often enough, society has not reflected true Rights and ways of life and adopted oppresion.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2017
    6Gunner likes this.
  13. DoctorWho

    DoctorWho Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2016
    Messages:
    15,501
    Likes Received:
    3,740
    Trophy Points:
    113

    He will not answer, so I will answer.
    The Constitution cannot grant what is already ours by Right, our legacy.

    The Constitution limits or is supposed to limit Government power & authority, as in illegal searches and siezures without warrant or probable cause.
     
    Max Rockatansky likes this.
  14. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2013
    Messages:
    93,462
    Likes Received:
    14,676
    Trophy Points:
    113
    rights only exist if the people around you recognize and acknowledge them.

    the Jews of Germany had the right to live in peace but the surrounding community failed to recognize such a right for Jews
     
  15. DoctorWho

    DoctorWho Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2016
    Messages:
    15,501
    Likes Received:
    3,740
    Trophy Points:
    113

    That is not true, Rights are often enough denied by others.
     
    Max Rockatansky likes this.
  16. gamewell45

    gamewell45 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2011
    Messages:
    24,711
    Likes Received:
    3,547
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Agreed.

    Agreed.

    Agreed, although I think anytime a mass shooting occurs, it's within the rehelm of possibility that the gun manufactures pay certain people to publicly claim we need more gun control in order to boost sales.

    Agreed; the laws don't work as in tended. We need one national standard.

    Don't agree completely; there are plenty of Red states where violence does occur; Virginia, Texas, Nevada, South Carolina, Florida, Alabama, etc.

    Resisting is futile; When the 16th Amendment was passed there was outcry; it was felt that there was no way the government could possibly keep track of everyone but somehow they did; hence you have the system today that we use to collect taxes. The same goes with gun control; it may take time, but eventually given the large of amount of fines and/or prison time that could be levied upon violators, you'll get majority compliance.
     
  17. An Taibhse

    An Taibhse Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2016
    Messages:
    7,272
    Likes Received:
    4,850
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Geez, those that violate current gun law are rarely prosecuted... I haven’t noted a significant rise in arrests and prosecution in those states that banned scary looking guns and large capacity magazines despite violations being considered felonies; compliance is slated to be less than 15% and perhaps less than 10%.
     
  18. Max Rockatansky

    Max Rockatansky Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2013
    Messages:
    25,394
    Likes Received:
    8,172
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Correct. Despite the error of playing with Godwin's Law, he's also making the error of denying someone has rights simply because a very authoritarian government deprived citizens of their rights.
     
    Turtledude likes this.
  19. Turtledude

    Turtledude Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2015
    Messages:
    31,656
    Likes Received:
    20,943
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    If Ron were to admit the obvious: that the bill of rights restricts the federal government from interfering with rights (that the federal government was never given the proper power to encroach upon anyway) he would have to admit that crap he supports like magazine limits or how many guns you can buy in a given period are unconstitutional
     
    vman12, Hotdogr and Max Rockatansky like this.
  20. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    34,769
    Likes Received:
    11,294
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Like a lot of things the Constitution is pretty vague on that point, and necessarily so. A Constitution can't really go into all the details of everything. It would be too long and not everything can be anticipated. It's only meant to lay out the groundwork.

    And the individual states were meant to decide that.
    When the text says "shall not be infringed", it really meant under this Constitution, but the U.S. Constitution is not the only power in the country, you also have all those states.

    However, when the Supreme Court began trying to apply the Bill of Rights to the states, then it ran into inconsistencies, which had to be creatively explained away and resolved.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2017
  21. OrlandoChuck

    OrlandoChuck Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2013
    Messages:
    6,002
    Likes Received:
    1,313
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Apples to oranges. He refers to cities and you changed it to states.
     
    Max Rockatansky likes this.
  22. gamewell45

    gamewell45 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2011
    Messages:
    24,711
    Likes Received:
    3,547
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Unless I'm wrong, cities are a part of the state.
     
  23. Max Rockatansky

    Max Rockatansky Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2013
    Messages:
    25,394
    Likes Received:
    8,172
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yes, but you are attempting to equate the events of a city with those of an entire state, hence why the apples-to-oranges comment was appropriate.
     
  24. gamewell45

    gamewell45 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2011
    Messages:
    24,711
    Likes Received:
    3,547
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Shouldn't the state count when when you are discussing cities; a death is a death regardless of whether it's a city, town, village or state. At least that's the way i look at it.
     
  25. OrlandoChuck

    OrlandoChuck Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2013
    Messages:
    6,002
    Likes Received:
    1,313
    Trophy Points:
    113
    If you want to have a discussion about states then that is a different subject. But don't try to compare apples to oranges.
     

Share This Page