Household debt jumps the most in 12 years, Federal Reserve report says

Oh, now you are resorting to editing down posts, did you get caught in a lie poly?

The part you deleted: I must have missed where you drew me a map of what you required to discuss this is good faith — care to direct me to it: quote or post number will be great and I will happily source the material.

Again, what is an objective metric for you? It isn’t costs, it isn’t infant mortality, it isn’t life expectancy, it isn’t medical errors, it isn’t accessibility, it isn’t patient satisfaction... Name it and I will produce it.

What we do well in is sourced here: https://www.businessinsider.com/10-...h-care-system-is-the-envy-of-the-world-2010-3
Just about everything else is done better by other nations and it is absolutely draining our economy.

 

No need I'll simply tell you right here right now.
I want objective metrics of how the quality of their healthcare is better than ours.

one not influenced by opinion.

I recall asking you how they count infant mortality and you didn't produce it. But fine it's a fair question. Innovation, as in New treatments and cures for diseases. Innovations such as new drugs. Life expectancy is typically related to other things such as lifestyle, diet, drug and alcohol use. Not medical treatment.

Infant mortality is believe it or not subjective. We consider a prematures infants.

Outside of medical errors, I'm not so sure. Life expectancy has more to do with life style more than medical treatment. It's draining our economy because if government interference.

 

None of the sources I have posted were “influenced by opinion”, they each use data an other metrics.

I must have missed that post then...
https://time.com/5090112/infant-mortality-rate-usa/
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2091rank.html
“Infant mortality rate compares the number of deaths of infants under one year old in a given year per 1,000 live births in the same year. This rate is often used as an indicator of the level of health in a country.”
We are behind BOSNIA — at 170th on the list but we spend more than all other nations.

Yes, innovation is one area we excel at at I have mentioned several times. Most of the studies include only direct cost of medical care however.

False, preventative care has been shown to be a major player here — as well as education.

Are you saying other nations do not count this?
Here is an article on the issue that just focuses on the US (other nations have lower rates) https://www.prb.org/prematurebirths/
Even there is is disclosed that some european nations still have higher successes with preterm births even though the US spends 10 to 40 times what some of those nations spend.

False, preventative care has been shown to be a major player here — as well as education.

Yes, the lack thereof

 

Weren't all of those Obama Administration programs? Oops. Yeah, we all know he failed to micromanage the economy and all economists(who weren't bias'd) knew it'd take a long time to fix it. Our next job is to continue domestic growth while cutting government fat. A tough ask in the current government.

 

trumps budget that adds 5 trillion to the debt is an Obama program? Who knew?!

That’s fascinating, thanks for sharing!

 

Yeah, R&D, that's where all that socialized medicine came from. From the superior system. If you stop paying for it it goes away. Maybe Bosnia will find the cure for cancer.

Not even close to the role lifestyle plays. Try again.

I'm saying what I typed next time don't ask just read.

Seems this source confirms my suspicion about higher infant deaths. In other countries they don't save as many premature babies so they don't count those as infant deaths. They just weren't viable, definitely not in Bosnia. That's why I pressed that metric. I already knew why.
Odd how you try and spin it.

Lifestyle is far more important. So not an objective metric of better quality healthcare.

So far your average is zero.

Yet no objective metric for such a medical system being better. The only objective metric you cited was innovation and we dominate. In fact we created the medicine these socialist systems use.

 

I'm all for complete repeal of the Obama program it's trash and nobody wanted anyway.

 

No it's spending.

 

I am beginning to think you have zero idea how this works...

Source?

Not spinning anything, other nations have a higher instance of preterm viability and their total cost is less — and everyone is covered.

False, “lifestyle” is influenced both by education and by preventative care. Absolutely a metric

Your outright dismissal with zero evidence does not make anything zero.

There are dozens of metrics listed you just blow past them with opinion, you act like the US is the only nation that has any innovation and that adding a public option would decrease this innovation.

 

Because I don't worship at the alter of socialism.

I don't know, maybe reality. If you abuse opioids do you think that will have more or less of an effect on your life expectancy than visiting a nutritionist?

Do you need a source that being an alcoholic or a drug addict causes complications with your health?

You miss the point. It was about infant mortality. The reason ours is higher than Bosnia's is not because our healthcare is poorer. It's because it's better. We count the prematures that would have just been nonviable in Bosnia.

Are you seeing now how it's not really objective? Did you read the links you posted?

Education is "free for all" and that's a disaster. Let's do that with medicine too. Yeah preventive care has no influence on lifestyle. If you choose to shoot up with heroin or bounce around with as many sexual partners you can no amount of preventative care will help. Do you need to visit a doctor to know not to take oxycontin for laughs.

Disputed.

I dismiss non metrics. Sorry you lost this one.

You didn't list any objective metrics. Life expectancy is based on lifestyle more than "preventive care" so that's not an objective metric. Just because you desperately want it to be doesn't make it so. I do agree or education is dismal, mostly because it's government controlled. That's the best argument for less government involvement.

It would. People are motivated to innovate because of the reward of riches. If the government decides what you're innovations are worth rather than the market they will under pay. Thus fewer innovations. This is basic reward principal. It plays to basic human nature.

This is the fundamental problem with socialism, why they end in genocide.

 

Trump was elected by people tired of a government that put their self interest above the citizens that elected them.

 

I don't think that's it. People just ignored what was happening in the rust belt, just like we ignore the opioid epidemic. And the people there resented being ignored and made fun of (flyover country and all that). I don't blame them.

 

Having a public option is not socialism — look up basic definitions before you use them. You just calling it socialism shows who is actually overly emotionally invested here.
Preventative care and education have shown to provide a huge impact on life expectancy and asserting such is absolutely absurd.

You cannot demand I post dozens of sources and then say “I don’t feel this is true” with zero sources or data to back up your narrative — I mean you can, but that makes you no better than the people calling us pedophiles because of adult attractions.

I care about improving the lives of Americans, you seem fine with what we have now — which is the most unaccessible, expensive healthcare in the world by a significant margin that is far from the best in most regards.

I will leave you with another source that shows how we are not benefiting (especially our poor) from being overcharged — the rest of the world is:
https://arcdigital.media/u-s-health-care-reality-check-1-pharmaceutical-innovation-574241fb80ba

 

How, Then, Should Christians Vote?
And do Evangelicals owe Bill Clinton an apology?
https://frenchpress.thedispatch.com/p/how-then-should-christians-vote

John Adams: “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious People. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

I particularly like one of the comments:
“Ask yourself: Has Trump become your tool ... or haved you become his?”

And remember that our votes do not just affect the current election. They have long-term consequences via the incentive structure they create. And conservatism ought to be about long-term consequences.”
“No, we won't impress the Electoral College. But, as I've posted before, our audience is ourselves and God, not the Electoral College.”

 

Maybe you meant fairer. I meant fair, which is why I said fair.

Being how I've been told that Obama is the second coming of Demosthenes, I have to presume that he meant fair when he said fair, too.

That doesn't mean they're not getting a fair shot in this country. If they thought they wouldn't get a fair shot they wouldn't come here.

Furthermore, we bend over backwards for immigrants, which is another reason why they come here.

There never has been nor ever will be a level playing field anywhere. Why would I expect America to be any different?

Just because the playing field isn't a level utopian socialist fantasy doesn't mean you're not getting a fair shot here, either. Furthermore, if you don't take advantage of the fair shot we give people whose fault is that?

Was Abraham Lincoln born with a silver spoon in his mouth?

One of the great things about our country is that you don't have to be rich to make a success out of yourself. Conversely, rich men and women have proven that they're perfectly capable of impoverishing themselves.

Yet they're here because they know they're going to get a fair shot.

Agreed.

I don't think I articulated myself clearly. This is what I was talking about:

The Daily 202: Rust Belt Dems broke for Trump because they thought Clinton cared more about bathrooms than jobs
By James Hohmann
November 22, 2016
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...bathrooms-than-jobs/58339cf3e9b69b7e58e45f1b/

Maybe I am wrong - maybe changing demographics and identity politics have everything to do with the Democratic Party's misplaced focus and priorities, but I think their fixation on power and government is what's responsible for it. Jobs and the economy are a capitalist, free enterprise, private sector thing that doesn't interest an increasingly socialist Party of Big Government that is focused on itself.

 

It is socialized medicine.

Preventive care is lifestyle, not medical care. And for the second time I agree with you education, education is already free for anybody who wants it and it is a disaster.

Further I didn't demand you post a single source. I do not care what you can find on the internet. I asked for objective metrics. I never asked for sources.

I know your narrative requires that your narrative requires that Americans are overcharged for lesser medical Care. I doubt your narrative.

You have done little to prove it correct.

 

I'll give you that. We have probably the best system in the world when it comes to immigration and assimilation. Cultures just naturally fit in here. We have amazingly little ethnic strife for a country as diverse as we are. So all in all, you could call it a "fair" system.

We have programs to help them, yes. That's in spite of you guys, not because of you. You guys would dismantle all those programs. Wouldn't you? Or do you just want to regulate and restrict the flow of people coming here? The way I read you guys is you not only want to massively curtail illegal (and legal) immigration, you also want the benefits going to legal immigrants to stop as well. Is that correct?

That doesn't mean progress can't be made. A society that's looking at a playing field that's, say 70/30, would want to get it to 55-45, even knowing it's impossible to ever make it completely level.

I agree with this.

That argument is given to excuse income inequality. There's no income inequality! Bill over there pulled himself up by his bootstraps! The success of a few people does not excuse a system that is failing many others.

In other words, just because some immigrants make it, does not mean there's isn't work to be done to make things better.

As a liberal, I only want power so that we can A) enact changes we think will benefit the worst off (e.g., poor people, minorities), and B) stop YOU guys from rolling back hard-won civil/reproductive rights for women and gay people.

Democrats fixate on race because you're either not aware of how obviously racist Trump is, and how racists ADORE him, or you don't want to be aware of it. Democrats are convinced we have, yet again, a racist President. We've certainly had them before. Wilson was terrible. Johnson was worse. What are we supposed to do if we think Trump is racist? NOT talk about it? Of course we're going to go on about it. He's the President!

Also, Trump's own guy said this:

The FBI has elevated its assessment of the threat posed by racially motivated violent extremists in the U.S. to a "national threat priority" for fiscal year 2020, FBI director Christopher Wray said Wednesday. He said the FBI is placing the risk of violence from such groups "on the same footing" as threats posed to the country by foreign terrorist organizations such as ISIS and its sympathizers.

It's the white nationalists who are killing people these days. It's a major problem.

I would keep the current system. I would just regulate banks more closely, and increase taxes on the rich. And maybe regulate the tech companies.

 

Every single source I have quoted has confirmed this.
There is zero argument that we pay more than every other nation on earth by a factor of 30% to 200% and this is for 9% of our population to go without necessary medical care every year.

In addition we have poorer primary and preventative care both in access and affordability; we also have 60% more medical errors than the Comparable Country Average. Guess that is due to lifestyle as well?

 

No they haven't

yeah that's why I haven't argued that and never did. I have never once said that we Pay less for healthcare. So proving that is not relevant to the discussion.

the contention I have is the assumption that countries with socialized medicine have superior quality. You have posted no source for that.

But no objective metric to suggest we have poor quality of healthcare, which is what I originally asked and you seem to be moving the goalposts to preventive care, which is lifestyle choices.

You further reference education which is not medicine or health care. I agree with you socialized education which is what we have is a stupid idea. That's I'm skeptical of doing the same thing with medicine.

Why do you call medicine Healthcare?

 

Cool. I like to see people own their stuff.

I'll join you by admitting I'm tight as ****, hence no Amazon

 

Indeed, and it's something we can all be proud of. I'll note that the key to our success has been our pluralistic, vs. "multicultural", approach to immigration that has effectively prevented the trivialization of our society.

I can only speak for myself, but I do believe that illegal immigration should be prevented, legal immigration should be regulated (which it is) and that we shouldn't be extending a host of welfare programs to immigrants just for entering the country. I'm not against programs that help legal immigrants find work (which we already have) and programs that help integrate them into our society, because I think we have a responsibility to help immigrants to do so as long as they're willing to integrate themselves.

There is room for progress in some parts, most notably our justice system, but for the most part I think we've made the playing field as level as we can. I think where the Right and Left disagree is that RWers wants people to have equal opportunities while LWers wants equal outcomes. The problem with the latter is that you have to treat people unequally to achieve equal outcomes and that's not so

Except I'm not excusing income inequality. I accept the natural fact that people have always been and always will be unequal and we can't change that. I'm also old enough to see the disastrously failed attempts to impose equal outcomes on people in the USSR and elsewhere and recognize that the wishful ends don't justify the means, most particularly the loss of individual freedom at the expense of an all powerful government.

Some immigrants are going to succeed and some are going to fail, just like the people who were born here. The immigrants I've known have been decent hardworking people who are doing the best they can to succeed and they likely will, just as my immigrant ancestors did and I presume yours, as well. However, just like the people who are born here, there are going to be immigrants who aren't hardworking people trying to make it on their own and they will fail, and that's their own fault, not our society's fault.

I am curious what you have in mind when you say there 'is work to be done to make things better'.

One of the things that concerns me about the rampant illegal immigration into this country and the hundreds of billions of dollars we are spending to assist them is that I'm not one of those RWers who wants to cut down our social safety nets and the enormous amounts of money we're spending on immigrants is adding too much strain to those safety nets. Many of our programs are already hurtling towards insolvency and right now our unpaid liabilities are over $128 trillion dollars. One of the problems I have with your side is that it's good about talking about sustainability until it gets to federal spending. We act like it's still the post-WWII golden age of the 1950s and early 60s but those days are long gone. We can't keep adding more programs and expect to sustain the ones we already have.

I'm a libertarian on social issues and as I said earlier I don't want to cut down our social safety nets so we agree on those things to some extent at least, but on the flip side of that Democrats are becoming increasingly indistinguishable from socialists and worst of all some of them are encouraging government dependency. Those are very worrisome trends in my eyes and they don't bode well for the future.

Democrats fixate on race for their own self-aggrandizement and to smear their political opponents, and the latter has gotten completely out of control. It's gotten so bad that virtually no one outside the LW Echo Chamber pays any attention to that slur mongering anymore.The double-standards don't help, either. Lefties heap their opprobrium on Trump for allegedly being a racist and go so far as to twist his words to fit that narrative as they did after the Charlottesville riot, but still hold Barack Obama in high regards after he got exposed cozying up to Louis Farrakhan, one of the vilest racists and anti-Semites on the planet. And then there's our governor here in Virginia, Ralph "Coonman" Northam...

I don't deny it's a problem.

You strike me as more moderate/centrist than your socialist comrades who are driving the DP over the extremist cliff. Both my wife and myself used to be New Left JFK Democrats and it's depressing to see what's become of our old party, as well as the New Left. Over the past year I've come to realize the New Left is dead - it's become the Old Left. It's not surprising that the Democratic Party has come to reflect that, as well.

 

I bet, if we laid out all our beliefs, we would agree on 95% of things. Well said.