Since birth, we are told that in America, we can be anything we want to be regardless of how smart we are or our physical charectoristics or how poor we are when we're born. If we simply work hard enough we will achieve our goals and if we don't it is simply because of a lack of hard work. America, we're told, is a meritocracy where being rich is seen as a result of virtue - having pulled oneself up by one own bootstraps, whereas poverty is seen as a result of vice - a lack of hard work, irresponsibility, sheer laziness can be the only answer for poverty in the Land of Opportunity. Recent studies have shown that the odds of a child born in the United States to a family in the bottom 10% of earners rising to the top 10% of income earners is about the same as a father who is 5' 6" having a son who is 6' 1". Can it happen? Yes, but not often.
Well, except you can't be a white conservative christian and you can't be a bigot or you can't be a Muslim, or you can't be this or that blah blah blah blah blahblahblah.... Oh, and let's not forget income inequality. We can't some people making more money than others now.
Your syntax suggests you are upset about something, and if that is true, I don't understand its origin. My thread is about whether or not America truly is the meritocratic land of opportunity we would like to believe it is. I said nothing about religion, race, or political ideology. Nor did I say anything about wealth inequality, which for the record, I believe is needed in a society to provide incentive for innovation and upward mobility.
Just pointing out the impeding of those on the way to being a successfull person. There will always be people whoa re jealous of other people's success and they will always use many kinds of dirty rotten tricks to do what they can to strip you of your seuccess or prevent you from being successful out of nothing more than bigotry or envy. And you weren't very specific when you made your post about opportunity.
Again, the topic of this thread is whether or not America is place where hard work and determination are all it takes to reach ones goals? Personally, I believe while America is a place where dreams come true, at least more so than some other countries. However, I feel that if the odds of going from the bottom ten percent to the top ten percent of income earners is about the same as a 5'6" father having a son who is 6'1", then it is not the land of opportunity to the point that justifies associating wealth with virtue and poverty with vice.
I would say it involved globalization to a small extent but that technology, which enablednthe economy to go from one of mass production to one of niche markets had more to do with it than anything.
No, the US isn't the land of opportunity. The one sole factor that influences your future chances more than any other is your birth. Born rich? You'll likely end up rich. Born poor? You don't even have to contemplate the option of getting rich, because you won't be. Even the 'rags to riches' stories of the US are low on rags and high on riches. Mark Zuckerberg? Bill Gates? People born to parents wealthy enough to provide them with the very best equipment and preparatory education that money can buy.
Wage stagnation has made it more difficult for the middle class to make ends meet and stay in the middle class. People live from pay check to pay check so a medical emergency, healthcare crisis, or even problems with an automobile can reek havoc on your finances. Its increasingly difficult to send your children to college or save enough for a decent retirement. At the same time public schools are failing the poor and most people will incur massive amounts of debt trying to get a college education which is still the best way to get a good paying job. So making enough money and getting an education which deal with work and advancement are real problems.
Ever heard of being well off? Why do you people think you must be either super rich or super poor as if there's noting else. My father came to America from Norway with very little, worked and saved and started a small business, he wasn't rich, his father wasn't rich. But he did it, as did millions of other Americans. He's now well off and living in Florida. He taught me the value of hard work and common sense. You won't get anywhere by being stupid. People buying things they can't afford, not saving, not watching how much they spend, will keep you poor. Will i earn as much as Bill Gates? Doubt it, neither will the average Swede or 99% of the worlds pop.
Compared to a third world country, which most conservatives have to resort to considering America has clearly fallen behind the rest of the developed world.
I agree. Where else can a person who attended college under another name and smoke dope, obtain the SS number of a dead person, be a Law professor but never taught or gave a lecture, be the editor of the Law Review, but never wrote an article for it, and became a community organizer, then a senator with nothing to show for it and then be elected to the presidency... twice. What a country!!!!
Whoever told you that, lied to you. If you are born an idiot, you will not become a brain surgeon. If you were born with no legs, you are not guaranteed to win marathons (even if you try hard). There are some goals you will not reach. In America, we share many things. We have a society, a system, that balances the things we share. We work hard to make sure that system treats each of it's members equally. But we don't share everything and that system doesn't guarantee equality or meritorious reward in all aspects of life. How smart you are, how good looking you are, how likeable you are ... the knowledge, experiences, wealth, and luck that comes to you will not be the same as that which comes to others. And anyone who promises you otherwise, is trying to sell you something.
It has been a known fact of economics (for over two hundred years) that a meritocracy is not compatible with a capitalist economy. David Ricardo made this clear when he discovered the 'Law of Rent' in 1809. In other words, when the poor work harder, smarter, or longer hours, their landlords will increase their rent demands. This is why you can rent a nice house in a low wage area for $500 per month, but a near identical house in a high wage area will cost you $1800 per month. In areas where productivity is higher, the landlords are richer … the poor are still poor, even though they produce more. ------------------------ The Consequences of Land Speculation are Tenantry and Debt on the Farms, and Slums and Luxury in the Cities by Upton Sinclair I know of a woman — I have never had the pleasure of making her acquaintance, because she lives in a lunatic asylum, which does not happen to be on my visiting list. This woman has been mentally incompetent from birth. She is well taken care of, because her father left her when he died the income of a large farm on the outskirts of a city. The city has since grown and the land is now worth, at conservative estimate, about twenty million dollars. It is covered with office buildings, and the greater part of the income, which cannot be spent by the woman, is piling up at compound interest. The woman enjoys good health, so she may be worth a hundred million dollars before she dies. I choose this case because it is one about which there can be no disputing; this woman has never been able to do anything to earn that twenty million dollars. And if a visitor from Mars should come down to study the situation, which would he think was most insane, the unfortunate woman, or the society which compels thousands of people to wear themselves to death in order to pay her the income of twenty million dollars? [read more] : http://wealthandwant.com/docs/Sinclair_CoLS.html
It's not that America lacks opportunity. It's that so many fail to recognize opportunity when they see it. Often times opportunity comes from adversity. Example: Friend of mine born in Mexico into a poor Menonite farming family, spent 18 months in prison for a mistake he made as a young man. He spent his time there learning the electrical trade. Upon his release he finished his training, got the necessary certifications and began doing small jobs. He ran the service to my barn and taught me how to finish the wiring. Today, 6 years later he is the top rated electrician in our area, with 22 full time employees and 3 locations. He recently purchased a 600 acre ranch adjoining the 300 acre ranch he bought two years ago. With all his success, he's still a very humble guy who will go out of his way to help others with a hand up. Example: His brother, same poor farming upbringing. 9th grade education, is a highly successful contractor, specializing in metal building erection. 4 crews and annual receipts exceeding 8 million. Example: I myself was raised middle class. Both parents educators/administrators. I squandered my inherent opportunities as a young man and at 22 found myself on the street. Worked minimum wage jobs, saved enough to pay tuition on a semester by semester basis. With only a bachelors degree, I worked my way up the corporate R&D ladder into positions typically reserved for PhD's. In 1998 I broke from the corp's. Sold the company in 2005 and effectively retired at age 48. Do I still work? Yeah....it keeps me out of the bars in the mornings . You'd have a very difficult time convincing me that there is not still great opportunity to be had in this country.
Hard work and determination have never been all it takes to reach goals, and it's not about poor, lazy or irresponsible. It's about being intelligent, street smart with common sense, exposure to experiences, studying (even if that just means studying the local marketplace), understanding business or whatever field a person may endeavor to enter, ability to see the big picture, interpersonal communications skills, emotional intelligence if desiring to become a true leader, responsible decision-making, self awareness and myriad other things. Many people work hard and stay poor. It's not just hard work that helps people excel and work toward self-sustainability and wealth.
I have no doubt as long as your work hard and make reasonably good decisions people can move up. I also don't understand why it's such a big deal where everyone is claiming the chances of going from the bottom 10% to top 10% is unlikely. Isn't a middle class earning enough? We also need to reform our education, both in public schools and college (especially tuition). The fact of the matter is social mobility in this country is very low compared to other developed countries, and that begs the question of why? I also think a lot of young people felt that this wasn't true because so many of them graduated college and were jobless due to the economy, or working in low wage jobs.
1. Our poor have more than the middle class in Europe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkebmhTQN-4 2. Our children have about $200 billion in purchasing power, more than the GDP of 3/4 of the world's countries: http://www.imediaconnection.com/news/1985.asp 3. We have a relatively new, gigantic industry in the US, casual dining, that hardly existed in the early 80s. Without masses of common working people able to spend $10 per head on dining, there wouldn't be Applebee's, Red Lobster, Chili's etc.etc.etc. on literally every street corner in every town in this country. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_casual_dining_restaurant_chains http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_casual_restaurant Look Ma, we are so rich that we can spend $10 a head for a meal instead of $10 at home to feed the whole family! 4. Here's another "new" industry over the last 40 years that could not exist if America was no longer the "land of opportunity." Shopping malls cannot survive without masses of lower to middle income discretionary spending. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shopping_mall 5. One thing that the left union label Complex trough feeders don't ever want you to figure out is that other than a 10-20% group of incorrigible f-ups in the population, whom NO amount of redistribution will help, THE POOR AND RICH IN THE US ARE THE EXACT SAME PEOPLE, just at different points in time. Today's ramen-eating fresh college grad working as a barista is tomorrow's oncologist earning $500k. Today's HVAC technician earning $15 an hour is tomorrow's electrician earning $100k. Today's fresh STEM grad with $0 income shacking up with 8 other guys in a house in Silicon Valley is tomorrow's tech billionaire. The LW wants to fool you with "static" graphs of wealth and income inequity at specific points in time while doing all it can to HIDE these facts. THEY live on taxes, get do-nothing govjobs, teacher's union pay bumps, gov contract work, grants, etc. NOT FROM PRODUCING WEALTH BUT BY FIAT. THEY KNOW THEY ARE STUCK unless they can convince that incorrigible, resentful 10-20% to buy into their resentment-based propaganda and lie narratives on race, gender, wealth inequity. RESENTMENT ADVERTISEMENTS ARE HOW THEY SELL THEIR PRODUCT, more taxes, more regulations, more govt involvement in citizens' lives. DON'T BUY IT, THEY ARE INHERENTLY DEFECTIVE GOODS. 6. We are so freaking wealthy that our GAME SHOW HOSTS make $10 million+ a year. Our talk show hosts make $70 million. Our athletes, celebrities, and the support for those people all make MILLIONS a year. This cannot happen in a land of no opportunity. It takes IMMENSE wealth funneled into buying products that allows our "talent" to earn this much. So don't buy their lie narratives on social mobility, their static graphs that somehow never have a complete methodology attached. It's all noise from union label PR offices, bitter academics and a larger propaganda machine focused on ONE outcome (and it ain't helping "the poor"), lining THEIR pockets at the expense of OURS.
I believe you just answered your own questions with those studies you didn't cite. If it is possible for 10% then it would be possible for the other 90%. I think you are skipping over the fact that 90% of the people don't work hard enough so now the liberals are tapping into that by giving them free stuff and saying that people deserve this and that or you didn't build this........really sad. Of course some will have to work harder but it is still possible.
I. I understand the point you are trying to make however, I believe you misunderstood the implications of the statistics in the study (which can be accessed here http://aseyeseesit.blogspot.com/2012/01/had-to-share-great-gatsby-curve.html). Essentially, a child born into a family making less than $10,500 has as much chance of growing up to make $100,000 is the same as a father who is 5' 6" having a son who is 6' 1". Does it happen? It can. But would you bet on it? II. Please define "work hard enough." Because America is seen as a 'meritocracy', we often associate wealth with virtue and poverty with vice. If a person is wealthy, often times we say they have "worked hard and pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps." Conversely, if a person if poor we often say, "they just haven't worked hard enough." Has a woman who has inherited a multi-million dollar business for no other reason than she was conceived in the right uterus "worked hard enough" to get where she is? Has a single mother of two, working two jobs to pay off her student loans, (usually which don't require a college degree at all) and her two children while continuing to look for jobs in her field not "worked harder" than the heiress? III. This is just for my own amusement: A grandfather is golfing with his grandson when they come to a large tree. The grandson chooses a different club because he plans on going around the tree instead of over it. Seeing this, the grandfather snorts derisively, "When I was your age,I used to hit over that tree all the time." Not to be outdone, the grandson lines up his shot to go over the massive tree and sure enough, the ball bounces against the trunk and rolls back to him. "What did I do wrong?" the grandson asks. The grandfather shrugs, "Don't know. I guess I'm just a better golfer than you." Now, what can we infer from this scenario and the conclusions drawn from it?
