Is the Ukraine-Russia conflict really just a proxy war between the US and China?

I knew Chinese refiners were getting good deals on Russian oil, but I had no idea that Xi had so much control over Putin's foreign policy.

I don't know how Russia gets out of this fight without looking bad. Their weapons are no match the American weapons Ukranians are using, and it appears they're being manipulated by China.

https://www.straitstimes.com/singap...-he-can-broker-peace-ukraine-defence-minister

SINGAPORE - Ukraine is willing to accept China as a mediator only if Beijing can get Russia to withdraw from all the territories it has seized.

That is the message from Ukraine’s Defence Minister Oleksii Reznikov in response to China’s quest for a role in negotiating a peace settlement.

“Give me evidence that Russia is ready to live in peaceful coexistence with Ukraine. The first signal should be full liberation of Ukrainian territories. Let them show us a goodwill gesture and withdraw their armed forces from Ukrainian territory,” he said.

“After that, we will believe this negotiator has influence on Russia. If they do not, sorry, for what (reason) will we sit and waste our time?” he said.

Mr Reznikov was speaking to The Straits Times in an interview on Sunday, days after China’s special envoy completed a tour of Ukraine, Russia and major European capitals to find common ground to end the bloody war.

Mr Li Hui, China’s special envoy for Eurasian affairs, stressed territorial integrity of all countries but was silent on the question of whether China was pressing Russia to return the Crimean peninsula and parts of eastern Ukraine that are under its control back to Kyiv.

Mr Reznikov, who briefly met his Chinese counterpart Li Shangfu on the sidelines of the just-concluded Shangri-La Dialogue in Singapore, said China appeared to have leverage over Russia, but its intent to press ahead was not clear.

 

How does China's willingness to broker a peace make it a proxy war between us and them? Seems to me China's making a profit. They'd be willing to spend every last drop of Russian blood to keep it going if that's the case. Nor do we have a lot of skin in the game: about $75 billion out of a budget of not quite $5 trillion. That's about 1.5%.

 

no

 

How is it possible for Ukraine to win this war?

It can't.
Ukraine's only use is to bleed Russia in pursuit of US-instigated regime change in Moscow (again), and the capitalists who profit most from this war crime have never cared how many innocent human beings are maimed, buried, and displaced in order to maximize their profits.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022...isis-in-maps-and-charts-live-news-interactive

 

He doesn't and Ukraine knows it. The Defence Minister was essentially talking to Russia rather than China when setting out his criteria for peace talks and it's unlikely he expects Russia to actually agree to it.

As to your title question; I know this can be a difficult concept for some Americans to get their heads around, but not everything that happens in the world is all about you.

 

I just don't see this as a proxy war between the US and China. More likely a proxy war between the US and Russia.

 

Of course. That is the Kremlin narrative, so it stands to reason it would be your expressed opinion.

 

China is making out like a Bandit .. For sure for sure. Russia is doing well also. .. and both are doing far better than expected with the Sanctions .. turned out to be a big backfire when the economic Nuclear Option button pushed the second time .. and now we are in a quite unexpected changing of the guard --- some 80 nations interest in the new currency the BRICS + are creating ...

The US on the other hand is taking a hit from these unexpected places .. our SOLE status as world reserve currency under threat is a huge issue .. I get that this day would come .. been predicting it in fact .. but not for at least another Decade .. perhaps two.

75 Billion is way low. heard it was around 125 Billion or so in direct cash .. and so on .. but Restocking the arms we gave them is not accounted for in that total and likely a bunch of dark money going that direction .. and its more every day .. doing deals with other nations who may have some extra Artillery shells hanging around .. its a costly affair.. and while our Revenue in 2022 was near 5 Trillion .. this is an artificial number of sorts in 2021 Revenue was 4 Trillion .. 2020 was 3.4 Trillion. ran 2 years of 3 Trillion deficits .. so this is going to increase Revenue .. take that away and where you at .. we still predicting deficit of 1.2 Trillion for the year .. which is massive.. but comming off the crazy Covid Tit .. not going to help revenue numbers grow. They estimateing 4.6 for the year .. see where we end up.

As of February 11th .. Fox estimated closer to 200 Billion the cost of war ..
US leads the rest of the world with $196 billion given to Ukraine amid war with Russia
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/us-leads-rest-of-the-world-196-billion-ukraine-war-russia

and we gave a whole lot more since Feb .. arming them up for this Counter offensive .. lets round it up to 300 Billion -- money better spent elsewhere.

 

You're taking Russian lies at face value. Vranyo is your enemy here.

First, Russia is NOT a near peer of NATO.

All those vehicle stats have to be modified by whatever percentage actually runs..

Their manpower estimates need to account for how many can be sent to the front and how many must stay behind to provide internal security. And how is the morale at the front.

Last but not least, the attacker typically takes the lion's share of the casualties.

I would say given that Russia appears to have stalled or is being forced to retreat demonstrates military inferiority to Ukraine.

Finally, given Prigozhin's march on Moscow, it looks like the US or NATO don't need to replace Putin. The oligarchs, military or PMCs will do it on their own. Given that Russia started this war and they hold the means to make it stop, I really don't see how you can say the West is prolonging it.

 

If your source is Fox, you're going to need a different one. They just lost a billion dollars in a lawsuit for lying to the public.

Even by your (probably inaccurate) estimate, you're still talking 2.5% of the budget. That's not a truly significant amount, weighed against stopping a potential new fascist.

 

This is stated US foreign policy.

"Mr. Austin caused some controversy and debate afterward when he appeared to shift the goal of the war from defending Ukraine’s independence and territorial sovereignty to weakening Russia.

“We want to see Russia weakened to the degree that it can’t do the kinds of things that it has done in invading Ukraine,” Mr. Austin said, implying that the United States wanted to erode Russian military power for years to come — presumably so long as Vladimir V. Putin, president of Russia, remains in power."

 

This does seem likely. I expect there to be a growing fight between the pro-war imperialists and the more level-headed people who would reduce the war aims or end it outright. The present situation is untenable for Russia in the long term.

 

Weakening Russia is the path to achieving the original goal of defeding Ukraine's independence. It goes together with arming and strengthening Ukraine.

 

Typical leftist response. First, it's not happening.

Then I show that it's happening and, "it's good that it's happening!"

I would say you probably shouldn't call it the Kremlin narrative when you yourself support it.

 

Interesting take. So, to you, an American conservative should not be in favor of weakening Russia, an adversary of ours and a militaristic enemy of democracy in Europe.

 

Where were you, and American liberal, during 45 years of the cold war, when we were trying to weaken the Soviet Union, and a communist threat to the entire world?

It's weird that you guys were rolling over for the Russkies when we were involved in superpower competition with them, but now that they're a weakened regional power, you're suddenly at red alert?

For me and most (although not all) conservatives, the cold war ended in 1991. For you, it seemed to have actually started in 2013.

But anyway none of that is even the point. The point, as of this thread, is that we're currently engaged in a Proxy war with Russia, one that you first denied then joyously applauded. So you don't actually disagree with me at all.

 

Nope....it's about dismembering Mafiosi even further.....

1st phase.....was destroying Warsaw Pact....mission accomplished.

2nd phase....breakup of USSR.....mission accomplished

3rd phase .... dismembering RF further.. ....ongoing ATM....emphasis on mission accomplished.

 

Just remember Mike that you're dealing with people that believe what the fake news tells them. Their positions ebb and flow with the polls, CNN narratives and MIC profiteering.

For example, this bovine excrement: "militaristic enemy of democracy in Europe". nazi Bandera ukraine hasn't had a full democratic vote since 2010, and now won't even have an election at all this presidential cycle. If that's not a ****ing dictatorship, I don't know what it is, but it is certainly not a democracy.

 

As a result of Putin's silly choices, Russia has become a vassal state of China.

 

Um….if Russia is directly I bombed it’s not a proxy war.

As far as I can tell, Russia and Ukraine will stop fight if they’re told to by China and the US respectively.

 

As far as the US goes, the prevailing opinion is that it's Russia's and Ukraine's decision whether to engage in peace talks.

The US is providing lethal aid, but that's not an act of war. China appears to be propping Russia's economy up by accepting discounted oil. None of that says proxy war.

 

All...Zruskistan has to do ...Bill...is leave Ukraine, simple as that.

That would be suicidal for Botox Dwarf....Bill.

 

Putin will likely hold elections (2024 scheduled) before Zelenskyy, since he's cancelled them. That's "democracy" for ya!

 

OK I don't see that.

 

Putlerstan will likely fall outta a window before 2024....if he doesn't have a "heart attack".