Jeb Bush says it would cost too much to deport illegals

That's twice you've accused me of making this personal. Sorry, I don't get it, and at this point, I don't really care. Usually open borders people try to throw everything including the kitchen sink at whatever the particular immigration related issue is, and that's exactly what you've been doing, rather than just coming right out and saying you don't believe that a government has a right to protect it's borders. So that's why I asked you if you were open borders since it makes any conversation about enforcing immigration or other laws moot. Arguing against driver's licenses, social security cards, and other laws and rules that have been around for decades in an immigration debate is pointless. Those issues should be delegated to an objectivist thread.

 

Border protection is a job for the military and the federal government. Who a state allows into their part of the U.S. is their business. It is a vital part of the security of a nation to regulate who comes and goes within our borders; however, the federal government does not have the authority to prohibit the travel of people in and out of the country IF you are relying on the Constitution. It's as simple as that.

The Secure the border lobby makes the most asinine allegations regarding this issue, but whether it's Jeb Bush, Donald Trump, or even Hitlery on the other side of the aisle, nobody will address the real issue. Liberty is a God given, unalienable Right. If the founding of America could be summed up in one word, it would be Liberty. You pretend as if you don't understand that concept.

You either believe in God given, unalienable Rights OR you believe that we get our Rights by being law abiding citizen - subjects of the New World Order. It's that simple, sir. Where do you get YOUR Rights from? If government grants you your Rights by way of citizenship, then the government can have different classes of citizenship and declare you ineligible to have certain "rights." So, not all of the subject - citizens in your utopia can own a gun or maybe join a certain religion (Christianity is almost outlawed in the New World Order.)

The misrepresentations of the Secure the border lobby are designed to do one thing and one thing only. If you believe in an open border, then you must not believe that the government should protect its border. What a hypocritical load of horse manure! Call it what it is. This is a battle between Liberty and the ultimate POLICE STATE. Jeb Bush makes the argument that it would cost too much to deport undocumented foreigners. My responses on this thread have been about that one issue. Jeb would say it's too costly due to the dollar and cents... he'd be right. I'd make the argument that in terms of lost Liberties, it cost too much. Maybe Jeb Bush will weigh in on that aspect one day.

The Secure the border lobby has given you the so called "Patriot Act," the National ID / REAL ID Act, warrantless searches, the end to a presumption of innocence / innocent until proven guilty, and the evisceration of the Fourth Amendment. These are the fruits of their labors. Trillions spent and they are still moaning the blues. So far, I've yet to see one, just ONE, Secure the border lobbyist that understood the difference between a guest and an immigrant. Immigrants come to be permanent residents (that's code for citizen.) A guest does not. In this society with its drones, cameras, background checks, pee tests, polygraph tests, credit checks, hair samples, and "requirements" to show proof of your slave status via the SSN, nobody feels "safe." Adding insult to injury, the Secure the border people will never be satisfied. They want to lock people out because they aren't citizens. We can ask them all day, but bottom line: they get their "rights" from a corrupt government that don't give a spit about unalienable Rights. Today, you know who those politicians constituency consists of. I was born with my Rights as were all men. THAT is what the War for Independence was all about.

With TRILLIONS already spent, this issue has not changed to suit the Secure the border lobby one iota. They need a crying towel because soon the American people will catch on and see them for what they are. Let's conclude:

Not only is it too costly to have a mass deportation, it would be idiotic to do it. Watch this. IF Donald Trump could beat Jeb Bush out of the nomination, get elected and give the Secure the border guys what they ask for (presuming the Supreme Court don't turn them down), We'd get some nasty results.

Not only would we deport foreigners, but their American born children as well. Well, a few years go by and those children get to be 16 or so and they come back to America. They have their Socialist Surveillance Number ... ooops, Social (ist) Security Number, birth certificate, and National ID Card. The Secure the border lobbyists protest, but the United States Supreme Court disagrees. These people are United States citizens. AND, they will not know how to speak English, not have an education, not have any job skills, nor will they have a family support system. They will become welfarites.

At this juncture, the Secure the border lobbyists will want to revolt. But, they can't revolt. The Secure the border lobbyists built a fence to keep themselves in; financed the armed drones that will mow them down if they step out of line, and they equipped the largest POLICE STATE in human history. Smart huh?

They will give you this cow dung that the 14th Amendment does not allow the children of undocumented foreigners to be citizens. What a crock! If they believed any of that, they would litigate that case BEFORE hinging the future on some mass deportation idea that would backfire on them. They won't because they know in their heart they would lose. But, they really think we'd rebel if the government did as I suggest they would. They never thought a traitor Muslim would get elected either, but he did... TWICE.

Get this: Deportation is too expensive. Jeb Bush may not be my pick for prez, but he is right on this one.

 

So what?...

... what's money got to do with anything??

... why do ya think we have a $17T deficit???

 

Again with the same sort of anarchist babble.

 

I could answer that, but it doesn't have anything to do with what Jeb said. Over one of those trillions, however, was spent creating the Dept. of Homeland (IN) Security, passing the so - called "Patriot Act" and its provisions. All of that was done to appease the Secure the border whiners. Less Liberty, more government, the false promise of safety... it's the motto of those who don't have a clue why the founding fathers broke away from the tyranny of King George.

 

And yet the Feds do have that ability. It was once semi-controlled by the states, at least up to 1849 under Federal supervision, but the 1891 Immigration Act placed it entirely under the Federal jurisdiction. Prior to that there was the US Customs Service dating back to 1789.

What seems obvious is that you are trying to cannotate the word Liberty to mean something more then what the founding fathers exclaimed it to be in both the DoI and the Preamble to the USC. http://lexrex.com/enlightened/AmericanIdeal/yardstick/pr9.html

Can a felon vote or be in possession of a firearm? A "right" by its very nature is limiting, whether it's "god-given" or granted by "We the People".

Liberty or the Ultimate Police State? Ol' Jeb's claim is mere assumption based on his perceptions of what he claims. Right now illegals cost the US GDP over 1%, and then you have the costs to individual states and locales. To claim the costs are too costly without figuring in what they already costs us is where his ineptness really shines. Jeb is a joke and speaks with nothing more then hyperbole.

Let me guess, you area Libertarian.

Trillions have not been spent on deportations. DHS spends less than $14B per year on deportations. The border fence was only in the low teens $B.

Why does it have to be a "mass deportation"? Why can't those in detention and jail be first gone. Implement E-Verify and more will leave (look at AZ and GA when they did just that). Others can be denied welfare as is actually already Federal Law, also a few states have went around the wording of illegals being denied in-state college tuition by allowing illegals to attend college at in-state tuition rates if they merely went to 3 years of high school in that state. The rest of your claim is at best an unsubstantiated wild pipe dream of yours based on nothing more than inane hyperbole.

You assume those children born to illegal immigrants are actually born US Citizens. It is merely policy that makes that claim right now, and can be easily changed to deny them. There is no known SCOTUS court case claiming, let alone stating, that children born to illegals are US Citizens. Unless you hold a US Passport stating you are a US Citizen, you are merely assumed to be such.

It would require a child being denied to bring forth a case. The US Congress can pass any law they deem necessary, and it is in place until someone with standing is able to have the case heard before the SCOTUS. The rest of your babble is once again

Unless it costs more to deport these illegals then they already cost us, how can it be to expensive?

 

Liquid Reigns:

I find it both cowardly and dishonest when you try to nitpick every sentence in order to try and make a point. You and I know full well, NOBODY is going to read that kind of back and forth exchange. Be that as it may, I will answer you generically.

You Secure the border guys make false assumptions that simply don't wash in the real world. You make the phony claim that we're dealing with criminals and then it becomes an issue of National Security. It's obvious: the Secure the border lobby wants a total POLICE STATE. Granted the government does have certain abilities, but bottom line - while the government has the POWER to do certain things, it sometimes lacks the AUTHORITY.

If you're claiming that the foreigners are a criminal issue, then you cannot expect a military solution and vice versa. But, obviously you don't care. You hate 'em and you want 'em gone. I got it dude, I'm not a freaking idiot. But, here it is:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Declaration of Independence

That cannot, by any stretch of imagination, mean that Liberty belongs to citizens only as no such creature existed at the time the DOI was penned. Liberty has its own definition and, regardless of what classification you want to guess I fit in, that word is not fluid.

You are wholly wrong. The non-partisan organization, the Congressional Budget Office, took into account every factor possible and came out with the conclusion that the foreigners paid as much in taxes as they received in services. The fact that they add to the over-all productivity of the country means, economically, they are a net benefit.

Culturally, the mixing of races, religions, creeds, and political ideologies is a disaster. You cannot rectify that by making an illegal and corrupt government bigger. You can try, but like your dishonest response, you will fail.

FACT: Cost to start the Dept. of Homeland (IN) Security = over 685 BILLION plus the fence at some BILLIONS more and the cost to implement the rest of the so - called "Patriot Act" comes out to over a TRILLION DOLLARS. And that sir, is a fact.

 

Cowardly and dishonest? Nitpick every sentence? I could swear it was each paragraph since you tried to make a different point in each one.

How does a border fence create a police state? Illegal immigration is a federal criminal issue. The National Guard (militia) is the individual states forces, controlled by the Governor of the state even though they are part of the military, that second amendment thing.

Stating lines from of the DoI doesn't mean you comprehend those very words. The word Liberty simply is to be free from being enslaved to an individual or monarchy. At the time of the founding fathers, it was for white men only.

The CBO failed to take into account many things. The CBO also showed that illegals did cost while it was actual legal foreigners that made up for the difference. Don't try to be dishonest here by including illegals with actual immigrants by using the word foreigner. Adding to the productivity of the US does not mean nor make them economically beneficial as they decrease US GDP by 1%.

Claiming I am dishonest in my comment is Maybe you should try to provide some links to back up your ineptness. Then I can explain them to you and show that you haven't the first clue as to what you are inanely stating.

Cost to start the DHS $685B, additional costs making it over $1T? Please provide a link to this shear stupidity.

 

I once worked for a company who admitted that they hired Mexicans and put their withholding taxes in a bank account and went hunting with them at the end of the year. Mexicans will work for minimum wage at a job that an American would not consider because it is skilled labor. They come to the jobsite in one van or truck. They descend like a hoard and work feverishly but not neatly. You cant discuss the job with them because they don't speak English. Ive personally seen that many of them live together in a house with minimal conditions, a mattress their only furniture. I am not racist, but I think the Mexicans have a monopoly on the immigration market and there are just too many of them. I don't know what too think about employment rate raising after deportation. One million deported was only a drop in the bucket even thirty years ago I cant see that having an effect on unemployment. I do know this . Their children, born of necessity,compete with my kids in school and later jobs. My taxes pay for translators for kids and parents, Spanish being the language. Families should be able to be deported. I think its been said it costs $12000 to deport someone. What does it cost us for them to stay? Not all of them are employed and I'm sure we pay for it one way or another. They don't have insurance,but get medical care from somewhere. They lower our standard of living and like it or not 12,000,000 of them compete with us for jobs. The bottom line is if you are illegal you need to go back where you came from. Go wait for citizenship in your own country. Take your kids with you and learn English while you are at it.

 

CrazyAl,

The immigration issue evokes a lot of emotional responses from people. Many times people are oblivious to the long term consequences of acting out of emotion rather than informed choices. Let me give you an example:

Throughout the 1980s and 1990s I worked with the Patriot Network. We brought so much pressure against the illegally ratified 16th Amendment that my Congressman at the time, Rep. John Linder, introduced legislation to repeal the 16th Amendment and get rid of income taxes AND the IRS, replacing them with the Fair Tax.

Back then we had already proven that the entire income tax thing was a farce. You could opt out back then. You had to revoke the Socialist Surveillance Number ...ooops, Social Security Number and reclaim your Preamble status. Then along came the anti - immigrant activists with the so - called "Patriot Act" and then the National ID / REAL ID Act. Today, on the spurious claims of the anti - immigrant lobby with respect to foreigners, we are now "required" to have a Socialist Surveillance Number (SSN) as a de facto National ID Number... which means it's virtually impossible to get around the income tax. And, to add insult to injury, we now have Hitler's tattoo idea on steroids.

The anti - immigrant lobby set the patriot movement back fifty years. Today they want to complain and accuse the undocumented foreigners of not paying income taxes. If the anti - immigrants had kept out of this, NOBODY would be paying income taxes AND the federal taxes that were going to be paid would have come out of the foreigners pockets too, regardless of whether or not they had human registration papers.

The reality of today's situation is simply this: Children born in the U.S. to undocumented foreigners are issued birth certificates AND are also issued the Socialist Surveillance Number ... there I go again, "Social Security Number." Regardless of any original intent argument you may hear regarding the 14th Amendment (which also fails constitutional muster), the courts have ruled those children to be U.S. citizens. I promise you that the United States Supreme Court will do likewise.

WHEN that happens, the United States Supreme Court will also rule that mass deportations are cruel and unusual punishment, you cannot split up families, etc. All of that could have been averted had the anti - immigrant lobby paid attention to the Patriot Network back in the early 2000s. If you want to pursue the balance of what you have committed to, I'll be glad to come back and give you the additional facts on the costs of foreigners being here - and more importantly the hidden costs of what the anti - immigrant lobby is proposing. There are, however, solutions.

 

I believe the main reason that Jeb Bush is against the deportation of illegal immigrants is because Donald Trump is for it. If he agrees with Trump he will lose the voters that dislike Mr. Trump; also if Jeb agrees he's not gonna steal many Trump supporters. He does disagree however with Obama's unilateral decision that he implemented a few weeks ago so it's hard to get a grasp on where Mr. Bush stands on this issue.

 

No when it comes to amnesty, Jeb is the real deal. He even wrote a book about it. That's the only issue that seems to motivate him.

 

When Trump becomes the president, you will find out what his true colors really are. Jeb Bush, like the entire family, has always been pro - immigration - as are ALL Establishment Republicans (regardless of what they say.) Immigration, whether proper or improper, is profitable for all concerned (unless all you can do is minimum wage work.)

Sure - racial, cultural, religious, and political diversity are destroying America, but the anti - immigrant lobby hangs their hats on economic issues that the Establishment types can destroy at a moment's notice. Trump says he will deport, but in the same breath he will admit he too will bring the Hispanics right back in. It's all about the National ID card and being able to control people for Trump and the Establishment.

 

As Mark Steyn said, before Trump the argument was between the amnesty supporters who favored a quick path to citizenship and the nativists, who were also amnesty supporters, who wanted to delay citizenship for a few years. Trump has totally changed the conversation and totally shifted the Overton Window on the issue. Trump may show different colors if he becomes President, but I already know what the colors are for every other candidate, and I hate what they support, so I'll take a chance on someone who actually broke ground on the conversation.

 

Ted Cruz is still the better man.

 

That may be the case, but he won't be President.

 

Trump is not a guarantee.

 

Trump gets away with his nonsense by failing to state how his ideas could be implemented.

Like with many problems, the difficulty is in the details.

McCain, Bush, various current candidates and others came to practical conclusions that attempting to round up those here is not effective policy for several reasons.

 

No nothing is.

 

I'm not sure how you know that McCain and Bush came to amnesty (or some variation of) via some sort of reasoned analysis. Bush is enthusiastic about illegals. I've seen him in sit downs and town hall like settings, and it seems like that's the only subject that really motivates him.

As for Trump, he issued a position paper on immigration months ago. It's on his website. What is it that you find confusing?

 

Charge Mexico for the "wall" which is estimated by the GOP to cost tens of billions of dollars? lol!

As for deporting those here, that's just not going to happen. Americans are not required to carry ID, and an assault by ICE on Americans is not going to be accepted. Mexico can not accept 11M people from the US without extreme humanitarian problems. We need the labor. Etc., etc.

 

You are making assumptions that indicate that you really didn't read Trump's immigration plan. Not that I really expected you to. But you don't even seem educated on the issue. Of the 11 million, about 40% are visa overstayers. They actually have identification, it's just for some other country. And they're not all from Mexico. But even if they were, why would it be difficult for Mexico to absorb their own people, and why is that our problem?

 

Yes - over 40% came legally. That is a strong indication of whether a "wall" would be effective, as a "wall" would not affect the visa overstays and it would not block illegal crossings at other borders. The tens of billions of our tax dollars for a "wall" at a time when the number of undocumented aliens is not increasing is a ridiculous expenditure proposed by Trump.

Being in possession of ID is not the issue. The ID issue is that I don't have to have ID. I'm an American citizen. And, I don't want some ICE guy accosting me (or anyone else) based on what we look like, and then taking some action based on me not having ID on my person.

Mexico is a relatively poor nation with far lower population than the US. Having them absorb 11M people who don't have homes or jobs and who would no longer be sending remittances would be a huge issue even if it happened over a number of years.

It is our problem in that the US will be highly resistant to creating humanitarian problems.

 

If you are a non citizen, even if you are here legally, you ARE required to have ID on you at all times. That's been federal law for decades. Actually a British reporter was locked up a couple of years ago for not having his passport on his person. So, I'm not sure what the ID issue is that you have. If you are pulled over for careless driving, are you arguing that you don't have a driver's licence on you because hey, I can't be made to carry my ID? I think you are in custody until you can show a driver's license.

I don't think Mexico not being able to employ all of it's citizens falls under a case of US national interest, but I suppose others feel differently. The US can't employ all of it's citizens but Mexico doesn't seem to lose any sleep over it.