I appreciate that, and yes, I would be interested in the data. Anecdotally I have heard for many years now that our education system is behind many other countries but it would be interesting to see if we are trending up or down. As for hyperbole, I use to use it often too but now do my best to avoid it as it just muddies the waters.
How can trends be established without the use of empirical data? How can you make an objective claim without defined parameters?
Yeah, I was thinking that as I read your post. Humans can never really experience true reality because everything we experience is filtered through our senses and brain. We cannot even know what our eyes truly see because our brains take the patchwork and create a whole image. As to the spirit of your post....I think the only way to get even close to realize one's own indoctrination is to take in all points of view as objectively and as often as possible. That being said, IMO, no one is truly objective and anyone who says they are objective or thinks THEY have objective sources is either kidding themselves are purposely spewing propaganda.
I missed this post earlier. This is an excellent point, regarding our perceptions. And, since perception is the basis for most of our words, thoughts, & actions, they are more important than reality, for their effect. But it does raise a question: How do you know that your perceptions are not just indoctrinated fantasies, based on somebody else's agenda?
So, how do you know if you have been indoctrinated? How do you know whether some of the things you believe to be true are nothing more than propaganda from an agenda driven ideology? 1. You make a list "propaganda driven ideology" and omit Religion. Who has been subjected to any of the indoctrinations on your list before they were indoctrinated into Religion? Were you? At what age was the concept of god instilled into you? I've been an atheist since about age nine. I heard of god long before I ever heard of evolution. It took just a couple of weeks in Sunday School to make me realize how silly the whole concept of god and genesis and the ark really was.
I think the best one can do is to not be afraid of views opposite of one's own. That doesn't guarantee that one's perception will change but, at least a person can be educated to both sides of an issue. IMO perception is reality because we are not equipped through our senses to experience raw reality. (same thing I said before)
If you think of yourselves as helpless and ineffectual, it is certain that you will create a despotic government to be your master. The wise despot, therefore, maintains among his subjects a popular sense that they are helpless and ineffectual. [And therefore in need of protection.] ~Frank Herbert Follow the ideology. None of the anti-American sentiments we see today have occurred in a vacuum, but have a thin red line you can follow, going back as far as you want. We have been trending away from Enlightenment values for decades.. nearly 100 yrs, actually. From the very start of the progressive movement, at the turn of the last century, it picked up steam. A blend of marxism, darwinism, manifest destiny, eugenics, labor movement, & the moralizing from post abolitionism, then into women's suffrage & even temperance. The roots of the progressive left are easy to follow. Not all of them were negatives for the American citizens, but it heralded the picture of the Righteous Moralist.. the Defender of the common man.. the Elite Philanthropist.. the rich liberal moralizer. Their agenda was NOT based on the enlightenment values of equality, individual liberty, right to life, liberty, & property, but an Altruistic Elite Benefactor, that the common man could put his trust in, to care for him & protect him from those who might exploit him. This Elite Patron could control the economy.. He could produce perfect social justice. He could save the earth. He could control the weather, & usher in an era of Peace & Harmony, if the common man would put his trust in this Divinely Inspired product of human evolution. But it is a false hope, & a misplaced trust, as the elite are NOT benevolent, but are complicit with the exploiters, as they have always been. All they offer is a return to the dark ages, and we are fools to believe them. Anyway, i find it a fascinating study.. the roots of ideology. When we can see where we have come from, it gives some idea on where we are going, especially as we repeat the same mistakes from history. The main problem, as i see it, is the pervasiveness of progressive ideology, in ALL of our human institutions.. not only in America, but all of the western, civilized world. They dominate academia, the media, entertainment, & all of govt. It is the de facto religion of the day, & has been steadily growing since the 50's. You can see it in court rulings, entertainment, the attitude toward religious faith, the view of science, morality, & just about every facet of life is immersed in, & springs from, this ideology promoted with unflagging propaganda & intensity. I do not expect us to recover, as a nation, as the sickness of leftist ideology goes too deep. It would take a revolutionary purge to rid the nation of this evil in America, & the rest of the world would not let us do that, even if we wanted to. I do not know what will take the place of the American hegemony, but i see it on the decline. I don't see any way out. I wish i did, & i wish i could have some hope for an American Revival, but there are too many enemies of the American Experiment, & too many useful idiots to march in lockstep with the propagandists. I suspect there is a budding despot somewhere, waiting in the wings. Waiting for the time to be right to burst forth as the Savior of Humanity, who will lead us into a socialist utopia. I am sure that despotism is in our future, as freedom is too rare a thing in human history, & cannot defend itself. The newer generations have lost the vision for America, & gaze longingly at euro nanny states as their ideal. That is their indoctrination, & their minds are in the grip of the propagandists, & i don't know if they can be liberated. “I agree to this Constitution with all its faults, if they are such: because I think a General Government necessary for us, and there is no Form of Government but what may be a Blessing to the People if well-administred; and I believe farther that this is likely to be well administred for a Course of Years and can only end in Despotism as other Forms have done before it, when the People shall become so corrupted as to need Despotic Government, being incapable of any other.” ~Benjamin Franklin As for me, i will not go quietly into the night. I will continue to expose and resist the flood of progressive evil that has infected this land, & that exploits & dominates the working man across the globe. If there was a movement to defend the constitution from all enemies, foreign & domestic, & preserve the American Experiment in self rule, i would join it to try to preserve our heritage of freedom. But i fear that we are a dying breed.. old lunies tilting at windmills. If this current generation does not want freedom, but prefers the comforting security of despotic rule, i cannot help them. It is their time, & they must defend freedom for themselves. I will die a free American. They cannot take that from me. But i cannot pass the baton on, if nobody will take it. Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty. ~Thomas Jefferson Those who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants. –William Penn
On Sunday I pointed out that USFAN had omitted the biggest single source of indoctrination - religion... USFAN, I'll ask again, why did you omit religion from your list of propaganda driven ideologies? Why did you omit... Going to church Watching televangelists on TV Listening to your parents "Praise Jesus" Being sent to Bible School Again, who has been subjected to any of the indoctrinations on your list before they were indoctrinated into Religion? Were you? At what age was the concept of god instilled into you?
I did address this earlier, & i do see it as indoctrination. but in our modern society, it is such a small subset of our citizens, it does not, to me, rate closer scrutiny. The other forms of academic & cultural indoctrination are much more sinister, than the minute number of a few kids in bible class. If anything, the minor 'indoctrination' from religious institutions pales in comparison to the concerted indoctrination from all the other sources. They just don't have the manpower or tax subsidies to compete with Naturalistic ideology. I could go to just about any area where kids congregate, & ask them about their beliefs on origins, for example. I would predict that 90% or more would believe in evolution. They would say that Trump is a racist, & that socialism is cool. I seriously doubt that in most of our modern society, there is much influence at all from your hated televangelists, or 'fundamentalist indoctrinators!'
Where? Religion is a "small subset of our citizens"? WTF! 90% of Americans believe in a god. Your concept of what constitutes a small subset is indeed amazing. You just provided another example of your abject refusal to accept any and all evidence that goes against your ingrained beliefs. http://abcnews.go.com/images/PollingUnit/875a2ChurchAttendance.pdf https://answersingenesis.org/christianity/church/sunday-school-syndrome/ Do the math. That's not a "minute number of a few kids in bible class". More important, from the standpoint of indoctrination, is that very young children's minds are the most susceptible to indoctrination. They just have to power of the collection plates coupled with tax exemptions. What kind of evolution? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/05/americans-believe-in-creationism_n_1571127.html Forty six percent Americans believed in creationism, 32 percent believed in theistic evolution and 15 percent believed in evolution without any divine intervention. If only 15% of people believe in naturalistic evolution how do you arrive at your prediction that 90% of their children do? Do some research and provide evidence for your assertion of 90%. See above. I know it would only provide anecdotal evidence but... I was not indoctrinated with religious beliefs to any major extent as a child. My first exposure was Sunday School. Two weeks of Adam & Eve, Noah's giraffes and The Flood convinced me that it was all just comic book stuff. I enjoyed Superman, but I knew neither he nor god were real. Now, care to share your early religious experiences?
Moving goalposts, strawmen.. is there a fallacy that you have never used? You are the king of logical fallacies, i will admit that. But i tire of pointing them out all the time with you, & you will only parse some 'gotcha!' phrase & ignore my points, so i will let you reread my post if you want, & reply to it, rather than a strawman of your own creation. I grew up in a secular home. We never went to church, & i was an atheist by 19. I believed strongly in the ToE, & was a vigorous debater with theists. It is irrelevant to this discussion, but finding out personal information is of deep interest to leftists, presumably so they can attack with more pointed & vicious barbs. .. At least that has been my experience.
How is responding to the points you made in your post "moving goalposts"? Example: Regarding "religion", you said it is a "small subset of our citizens"? I replied WTF! 90% of Americans believe in a god. What goalposts did I move. How did I divert? ============================================================== You make the assertion that I post fallacies. But, since you can't show any, you say you "tire of pointing them out all the time". ============================================================== Then you accuse me of using gotcha phrases and ignoring your points. You stated: I could go to just about any area where kids congregate, & ask them about their beliefs on origins, for example. I would predict that 90% or more would believe in evolution. I replied: If only 15% of people believe in naturalistic evolution how do you arrive at your prediction that 90% of their children do? I guess you call it a gotcha whenever I show your posts are ridiculous. "I gotcha making another unsupportable assertion". OK But I did give you and out - all you had to do was "provide evidence for your assertion of 90%." I guess asking for evidence is just another gotcha, or a movement of goalposts or a fallacy. Except when you ask for evidence, then it's OK.
OK. Thanks. I'll try to remember that you were not the product of childhood indoctrination. And I say that seriously, not sarcastically.
From your other posts in this thread you seem to be a Theist Creationist. So let me use your own OP against you: Where is your scientific verification of religion/creationism?
I have none. I never have made any claim of 'science' for beliefs about origins. It is my contention that NOBODY has empirical evidence for ANY claims about the origins of life or the universe. I have beliefs about the nature of the universe. Scientifically, i am an agnostic, regarding origins, because there is nothing empirical to make an informed, conclusive decision. All anyone has are inklings, leanings, or surmises. I have consistently stated this position, in any threads i have been in. The OP is not against me, as i have not pretended to shroud my beliefs in scientific jargon, or claimed other fallacies as evidence for my beliefs. My evidence is subjective, not based on anything empirical.
I agreed with this poster about religious indoctrination, & even expanded it to include state sponsored 'religious' indoctrination.
Censorship & indoctrination are twins. they work together in manipulating & promoting a phony narrative. I don't mind dealing with ad hominem, or ridicule, or lies. I will expose it, & carry on with the topic. But if i am censored for exposing these things, i will not participate.
