MMT: overcoming the political divide.

Discussion in 'Economics & Trade' started by a better world, Mar 12, 2020.

  1. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    Oh dear, I see you relying on a delusional 'government-by-voluntary-agreement', Libertarian model.

    1. What is the basis of Bitcoin's value? (other than a widespread fear of fiat currencies - not shared by ANY economists (not even evil neoliberal economists), a fear based on misunderstanding of fiat currencies.

    2. How will you pay state taxes, fines and fees with Bitcoin?

    BTW, I agree entirely with your above paragraph, except for the last sentence, and even that sentence I can agree with, with reservations...eg capitalism in the West is funded by private banksters (as already agreed by both of us); whereas in China, capitalism is funded and managed by the PBofC, which is the reason for China's extraordinary growth cf. the current political and economic malaise in the West.
     
  2. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    1. You can go and do the research yourself, I have posted so much information about Bitcoins value.... I'm rather annoyed you'd ask for it....make an effort

    2. so you think it's just me... I'm the only person making the transition to bitcoin :lol: even Miami's mayor is considering bitcoin for its treasury... sheesh now we have local governments buying bitcoin..worst case there's always a blackmarket especially when you ban something.
    MicroStrategy to Host Bitcoin Conference to Boost Institutional Adoption
    https://insidebitcoins.com/news/mic...in-conference-to-boost-institutional-adoption

     
  3. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    Aw....do i have to? Surely you can state clearly in one or two sentences what is the basis of Bitcoin's 'value', and what currency YOU intend to pay your state taxes, fees, and fines with?

    For example, I can generously explain in a sentence what MMT can offer,

    namely, the offer of an above-poverty job to anyone who is currently unemployed**, given that the resources exist to allow the sovereign currency-issuing government to make that offer.

    **ie, post pandemic; during a pandemic the central bank should simply suspend the free market and fund everyone's essential living expenses in the lockdown, using its unlimited currency issuing capacity, since inflation is not an issue in a locked-down economy).

    {Mainstream neoliberal Friedmanites are being dragged kicking and screaming by the pandemic into revising their dogma re inflation and government spending; as they are forced to confront the fact that the free market ALONE cannot deal with a pandemic].

    It could turn out that useful idiots like the mayor might actually force mainstream Friedmanite central bankers to face reality, as (if what you say is correct) many people rebel against their mistreatment by national central bankers running Friedman's evil neoliberal ideology.

    Yes, Yellen will be forced to take notice, if she wants to have ANY control of the nation's finances......
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2021
  4. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    do me a favour please bw, don't buy bitcoin... strengthen your resolve to never buy bitcoin
     
  5. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    ..practising reverse pschology? I'm not interested in ponzi schemes , though after listening to a young bloke explaining why he invested $25 bucks into the latest stock market scam, to see if he can "beat the billionaires at their own game" (so far he's made $125...), I won't decry anyone giving it a go.

    But I noticed you have forfeited the debate relating to central bankers and MMT....
     
  6. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Bitcoin is

    digital gold

    there you go, you need one sentence... I only need two words

    ps. as for reverse psychology you are wrong in your conclusion, those who push MMT deserve to be at the back of the cue when it comes to owning digital gold
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2021
  7. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    Digital gold?

    'Digital' (in this context) refers to digits on internet-connected computers. They are like 'points' tabulated to keep score in a football game, created ex nihilo.

    'Gold' refers to the highly sought-after metal whose 'price' varies from time to time.

    So you have explained nothing, other than Bitcoin is a non-government form of fiat currency, whose value is derived from the faith of those who use it, faith derived from lack of understanding of (properly managed) government fiat whose value is based on the productive capacity of the particular nation.

    Which explains why you have forfeited the debate re central banks and MMT. Why did you come here in the first place? To discredit MMT?

    You are only succeeding in arguing MMT's case....ie, sovereign fiat-currency-issuing governments can create and spend their own currency.
     
  8. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    But it isn't. Gold's utility in exchange is based on its utility in use. $#!+coin has no utility in use. Zero. It is ONLY useful in exchange, and it is not very useful in exchange because its paradigm is deflationary, meaning that the incentive will always be to hoard it rather than spend it. So it is an asset bubble that will eventually collapse -- perhaps the strangest since the tulip mania -- and the biggest fools will be left holding the bag. Take it to the bank.
     
  9. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    not true, it is a store of value... in fact as far as assets go the best store of value you can find.

    The utility is coming, Paypal already responsible for a large percentage of the bitcoin trade... I don't see people using it as currency, I think it will be converted to other stable coins and crypto currencies such as Monero then traded... so your utility argument is really naught... irrelevant
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2021
  10. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    :lol:
     
  11. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    MMT is:

    The corrupt bankers not wanting to fix the broken system because it makes them (the 1%), extraordinary wealthy while the other 99% becomes poorer every day.
    MMT gives the 99% a pittance while the 1% continues to steal and plunder and control the 99% by controlling all the wealth.

    Fixing the system would mean going back to a gold or bitcoin standard.
     
  12. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    No, such claims are absurd, as its volatility alone proves. If it is still worth anything in 50 years, then you can claim it is a store of value. As of now, it is a speculative bubble asset of very uncertain future value.
    Or not.
    So what?
    Converted on the basis of what, pray tell? My utility argument stands. As of now $#!+coin is of almost no utility whatever, except to speculators.
     
  13. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    MMT just describes the current system, and what could be done within it to make it less of a scam for private banksters. If the private commercial banksters' privilege of money issuance was revoked -- say by requiring 100% reserves for demand deposits -- banking would become an ordinary intermediation business rather than a massive theft engine for the unearned profit of the rich.
    Nonsense. Going back to gold is impossible for the same reason $#!+coin will never be money: the paradigm is deflationary. Except that $#!+coin's paradigm is even more deflationary than gold's.
     
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  14. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    less of a scam :lol: not good enough,

    yes agreed, going back to gold is impossible... crypto assets & decentralised finance on the other hand is increasingly filling the gap...watch this space
     
  15. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sorry I hate dissected incoherent replies and can't be bothered stitching each comment back together
     
  16. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    I agree: private commercial banks should not be privileged to increase the money supply, period. IMO MMT advocates do not fully understand the effects of private banks' money issuance privilege, nor do they go far enough in advocating replacement of privately issued debt money with publicly issued debt- and interest-free fiat money.
     
  17. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    My replies are never incoherent.
    It just requires reading in context. Unfortunately, the quote function does not support multiple levels of quotation to keep responses in context.

    But I get it: you can't be bothered.
     
  18. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    There is discussion - now and again - about this point in the comments section on Bill Mitchell's blog.

    I agree with you: IMO we don't need private banks at all.

    However, acceptance of the principle of debt-free money creation (as we discussed some time back) by the sovereign currency-issuing government, is a good start.

    Oh...and we certainly don't need a fake Libertarian (ie, no government-issued) currency backed by .......what exactly?

    Witchie can't be bothered explaining.... because she CAN'T explain it.

    But don't let's spoil her Ponzi scheme party while it lasts. She might invite for a ride in her new sports car when/if she sells out of Bitcoin at the right price....
     
  19. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    what you are proposing is communism (not the theory but the actual outcome of trying to implement), the state controlling all have been done before, refer the Soviet Union. MMT is a tool of control.
     
  20. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    :lol: By making such an absurd and laughable comment, you only disqualify yourself from serious discussion.
    So now stopping private banks from destabilizing the economy by increasing and decreasing the money supply is "controlling all"?? It's hard to think of a way to ridicule that claim that would make it seem any sillier than it already is on its face.
    More silliness. MMT is a mostly accurate description of the debt money system and a proposal to bend it to public rather than private benefit, and to make it less unjust and harmful.
     
  21. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    MMT'ers say, oh its fine printing money as long as productivity goes up... well here we are in the middle of a pandemic... and where the fck is productivity.... but still you beat your MMT drum.

    In addition to the productivity dilemma people will find other means of currency or money, like crypto and government will have to ban & control ALL other means of "currency or money" or MMT will fail... because there's no value in printed paper unless it is the ONLY MEANS OF PAYMENT.... therefore you need a communist government that exercise full control for MMT to work.

    btw the central bankers KNOW this, the reason why they are pushing socialism and communism... they don't want to give up control of the money supply.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2021
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  22. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    Oh dear ...I have explained this before to others, why are the Right so incapable of analysis?

    In a pandemic, the necessity is to minimize social contact; this means closing-down the non-essential economy.

    ie, deliberately causing much of the economy's productive capacity to be NOT used.

    Which is an argument for NOT pitting lives against economics, as the current evil neoliberal system is forcing governments all around the world to do at present. eg, last week Bolsonaro said Brazilians have to take their chances (run the gauntlet of catching covid-19) and go back to work, because the government has "run out of money" to support unemployed workers.

    It's NOT a dilemma, as explained above.

    What people need in a pandemic is food, housing, exercise, and internet access, etc.

    It's just evil neoliberal economics that have convinced people they need money......


    Wrong. The value of a nation's (government) currency IS the productive capacity of the nation (whether in the special circumstances of a pandemic, or normal circumstances, as addressed above).

    Your "ONLY MEANS OF PAYMENT" proposition refers to the the agreed currency of payment to the nation's government, regardless of the form of government (communist or otherwise).

    FYI, a central bank that is authorized to create and spend the nation's own currency into the economy, in the PUBLIC sector, alongside money creation in private banks and spending in the PRIVATE sector, is NOT "communism".

    Wrong. The current crop of evil neoliberal central bankers are looking after their OWN vested private sector interests. They are certainly not pushing socialism and communism.
     
  23. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    Message to Biden: here is your defense against the deficit hawks crawling out of the wood-work, now that Trump's gone:

    Central bank at odds with Australian treasury – again – Bill Mitchell – Modern Monetary Theory (economicoutlook.net)

    (the above is a link)

    [Here professor Mitchell is referring to Australian PM Scott Morrison's latest refusal to consider more support for the Australian economy].

    Excerpt:

    "The Prime Minister made a speech yesterday at the – National Press Club, Canberra (February 1, 2021) where he started to set the scene for the withdrawal of the fiscal stimulus support that has helped the Australian economy weather the crisis.

    But the PM started to 'reeducate' the population back into mainstream myths.

    He knows the cover on all that nonsense has been thoroughly blown**, so his speech marked the first real effort in a renewed propaganda strategy.

    (**
    unfortunately I can't agree with Bill on that; the general public are still well and truly hoodwinked by neoliberal, neo-Keynesian orthodoxy...without knowing much about either).

    "He said among other things:

    1. “You can’t run the Australian economy on taxpayers money forever.”

    The correct statement would have been “you never run an economy on taxpayers' money”.

    2. “We are not running a blank cheque budget.”

    Yes they are. Everyone now knows that they can type any numbers in bank accounts it chooses and the currency is created – instantly.

    3. The PM also said he was "worried about lumbering debt on future generations" even though the RBA has bought a significant proportion of the new debt issued, and, as noted above has committed to buying another $A100 billion worth over the next year.

    I am sure the PM wasn’t worried about future generations when his government refused to provide any fiscal support to the University sector during the COVID-19 crisis in the face of a massive drop in revenue as a result of the closure of borders, which prevented foreign students from returning for the 2020 academic year."
     
  24. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    Productivity is a lot higher than it would have been without the emergency money issuance.
    False. As long as courts require liabilities including tax liabilities to be satisfied in recognized currency, there is no need to ban or control any other form of money (which I have explained why crypto will never be).
    False. To have value, it merely has to legally satisfy a liability. People can use $#!+coin, gold, trading stamps, cowrie shells or wampum among themselves all they want, and legally recognized money will still trump them all.
    That is nothing but an absurd non sequitur with no basis in fact, logic or economics.
    :lol: Silly child, don't you know banksters serve the greedy, privileged rich, not working people?
     
  25. scarlet witch

    scarlet witch Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    you are wasting my time with your garbage
     

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