MOD ALERT Palestinians - Their hatred is the cause of their misery.

SO Oslo Accords and Geneva Accords are all fictions? good to know!
If you think that the Arabs didnt agree in Oslo Accords to the exsistance of the IDF in the West Bank, this is a blatant disregard from facts.
If you think that the Geneva Conventions is refering to the situation in the West Bank, so you need to know the meaning of "occupied territory", and the history of the region. Because if you think that Jurdan had legitimacy to their rule in the West Bank until 1967, you think to learn again, and I already told u and showed you that Jordan didnt had legitimacy, but you continue to ignore it, and its bothering me because thats all facts.

I know there is no half/quarter facts, i didnt mean it like that. I ment that its bothering me that people like you based their opinions about Israel on several things that match on what they want to think and not based their opinions on all the facts there is about the situation you have between Israel and the Arabs- thats whats bothering me!

 

I am not surprised you can't see what an insult to both history and intellect your professed position is, but I suppose that is to be expected when emotion and false righteousness overpowers facts.

Support does not necessitate blindness. Support does not mean there can be no legitimate criticism from those very same supporters. Support does not mean agreeing to ridiculous laic misinterpretations of both international and domestic law. Support does not mean accepting ancient history as modern day justification.

I am not surprised you cannot grasp these obvious truths, nor that you retreat in such a churlish fashion.

 

ONce again you repeat the same arguments. Your interpretation of Oslo is simply ridiculous. Acknowledging a pre-existing fact in an agreement, especially in an agreement meant as a blueprint for ending said pre-exisitng fact (i.e. the occupation) DOES NOT MEAN THE SIGNATORIES HAVE AGREED THERE IS NOT PRE-EXISTING FACT.

I am intimately familiar with the history of the region. In fact I have agreed with you on more than one occasion that Jordanian attempts at annexation where rebuffed by the palestinians and rejected by the international community. so what?
The well worn neo-zionist argument that Palestine didn't exist as a country so the GC doesn't apply and there can be no occupation belies a few facts.

Neither Israel nor Palestine existed as sovereign nations at the time of the partition plan. A plan dictated by third parties that ultimately neither the Jews nor the arabs actually embraced. Hence the war of independence. Israel won a state consisting of contiguous territory which partition plan did not provide them with. They agreed to an armistice along the green line, which was designated by all party's as the de facto borders of the new nation of Israel. It was on these borders that international recognition of your nation was predicated.

So when Israel invaded the palestinian arab territories in 67, they proceeded to occupy those territories. Indeed for the next 47 years, the areas were called "the occupied territories" by Israelis and the world alike. Reality trumps clever semantic interpretations every day of the week.

If you wish to engage in facts and history, I am up for the debate, considering I have been a student of the conflict for the past 40 plus years. I am always open to new facts. I am fully prepared to revise my opinions and perspective based on new facts that come to light. for instance I was a firm believer that all the arabs left voluntarily (creating the ridiculous mulit generational refugee situation of today) or at the behest of the AHC. But we know now that is only partially true and in fact many were "evicted" at gunpoint. It is a fairly significant example of how the "black and white" of history is in fact full of shades of grey.

 

Wich interpatition? this is what was written in Oslo Accords, that is not an interpatition, i suggest you to read the Oslo Accords (like i did), and you can see those paragraqpes yourself.

How can it be an occupation if it is agreed on both sides? an occupation happen only if one country take control over a peice of land when the other side dont agree to it, this is occupation!
Furthermore, in the West Bank Israel doesnt stop Arab countries to donate money to the Arabs, and Israel herself give money to the Arabs, give electricity, water, gas etc.- this is not an occupation when one side helps the other!

If Jordan didnt have the legitimacy from the world to annexed the West Bank, it means that Jordan was never in control there. Well Jordan was in control there but never got the legitimacy for that!

I agree with that, and I never said that beacuse Palestine was never existed as a coutnry, therefore it cant be an occupation. I said that it cant be an occupation because of the international agreements that the Arabs part of them.

Well with that argument i partly disagree, because the Jews did accept the partition plan from the UN, but the Arabs were those that didnt accept.

If i understand your point with that Passage- its correct that the Independence wer formed the borders of Israel. but it was never recognized by the world either Palestine nor its borders, the world just recognized the right to the Arabs to have a state.

Judea and Samaria are called "disputed territories" and not "the occupied territories".

I'm happy to hear it!

In the Declaration of Independence Israelis expressed their desire to live peacly with the Arabs and also to cooperate with them:

In jaffa before Israel was founded the Arabs there left voluntarily and no one threaten them.

If the Arabs want eagerly a state of their own, so why when they been under Jordanian rule they never wanted it? I mean Israel left the Arabs to rule themselves in the West Bank, and alot of the Arabsthere have Israeli citizenship, and let us not forget that Israel each year give to the PA money (and alot of it), as the US, but 73 millions from US aid is given to terrorist families, in Gaza the story reapeting itself- Israel give to the Arabs food/water/electricity/gas/building materials, and you know what happen? Hamas takes high Taxes on groceries imported from Israel and Egypt and thats how the organization maintains high poverty, for exemple in Gaza 1 kg. of potatoes cost eproxemetly 100 shekels (28 dollerrs or so).

 

Ihave read it.

But please, feel free to post the articles that say that there is no Israeli occupation of Palestinian land.

I guess you really havent read the whole GC and what the obligations of the occupying force are. And Israel wouldn't stop others from giving the palestinians money, its less they would have to spend.

so what. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here by repeating and repeating this.

Except that those international argeements actually do deal with the occupation as fact.

c'mon. Bennie and the boys KNEW the arabs wouldn't go for it from the get go. It made good political sense to say "hey we'll accept it", all the while preparing for the civil war to become the war of independence once the brits turned tail.

Might want to do a little bit of research. The green line became the de facto borders of Israel in 1948.

Except that they are occupied.
But I can certainly understand the "repositioning" that Gold popularized. Its merely window dressing on reality, or are the palestinians in those disputed territories granted full rights? Can they move around freely? Are Israeli social services available to them? Oh, sorry know, their rights seem to be as "disputed" as the "territories" they live in.

And I'm sure it was sincere, especially since the next day the war of independence started and you and I both know that was no surprise to Ben Gurion.

Like I said, there were arabs that left because they were warned to get out of the way by the AHC, there were those that got out of the way because who wants to have their family remain in what could be a combat zone at any time, there were those that left because they didn't want to be rule by jews, AND THEN there were those that were forcibly removed at gunpoint as Plan Dalat called for.

 

Please read:

As you can see both sides agreed that the military will stay in the West Bank, ans also will redeploying its military outside populated areas, which means that the West Bank canot be under a military occupation because the both sides agreed to it, and we all know that occupation is happening when decision of one party according to a specific area.

Source:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth...nd_the_palestinians/key_documents/1682727.stm

Lets start:
* The occupant does not acquire sovereignty over the territory- Israel does not implement sovereignty over the area A and In area B there is not Israeli civilian rule- which means DONE
* Occupation is only a temporary situation, and the rights of the occupant are limited to the extent of that period - Israel across their history tried to implement a peace treaty with the Arabs according to the West Bank and Gaza but there was always Arab opposition about it, and you could sew it when Olmert seggested to Abu-Mazen the most generous preliminary agreement and Abu-Mazen didnt signed with him, or even whole of the things that Arafat wanted was suggested to him and he didnt want to sign.
* The occupying power must respect the laws in force in the occupied territory, unless they constitute a threat to its security or an obstacle to the application of the international law of occupation.- done, the IDF never interepted the laws that the PA ruled inside of Areas A and B, they only does things that threat Israel's security.
* The occupying power must take measures to restore and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety.- the IDF does the exact thing and only takes measures on terrorists, and also of course the Oslo Accords.
* To the fullest extent of the means available to it, the occupying power must ensure sufficient hygiene and public health standards, as well as the provision of food and medical care to the population under occupation- done- Israel sends ingredients either Gaza nor the West Bank and also provide medical care, and in the West Bank if Arab gets hurt the soldiers there give him madical care.


* The population in occupied territory cannot be forced to enlist in the occupiers armed forces- they dont want and it doesnt happen
*Collective or individual forcible transfer of population from and within the occupied territory are prohibited- the IDF doesnt do it, maybe it did but no longer.
* Transfers of the civilian population of the occupying power into the occupied territory, regardless whether forcible or voluntary, are prohibited- Israel is building houses in Area C, but as we all know Area C is under civilian and military rule, so it means that is not an occupeid territory (Oslo Accords)- DONE
* Collective punishment is prohibited- the IDF doesnt do it
* The taking of hostages is prohibited- the IDF only takes terrorists for investigation, but not as hostage, several hours after the investigation they let the terrorist go- DONE
* Reprisals against protected persons and their property are prohibited- Israel doesnt encourage it, on the contrary, Israel is arresting individuals that do it.
* The destruction or seizure of enemy property is prohibited, unless absolutely required by military necessity during the conduct of hostilities- the IDF doesnt do it, and when they did do it it was ok because it was required be military necessity- DONE
* Cultural property must be respected- Israel doesnt encourage it, on the contrary, Israel is arresting individuals that do it.
* People accused of criminal offences shall be provided with proceedings respecting internationally recognized judicial guarantees (for example, they must be informed of the reason for their arrest, charged with a specific offence and given a fair trial as quickly as possible)- the IDF arrests those who been charged with a specific offence and the IDF puts them on a trial- DONE
* Personnel of the International Red Cross/Red Crescent Movement must be allowed to carry out their humanitarian activities. The ICRC, in particular, must be given access to all protected persons, wherever they are, whether or not they are deprived of their liberty- the IDF allows International Red Cross to carry out their humanitarian activities (and I sew it with my own eyes)

http://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/misc/634kfc.htm

The point is that there was not country that controled the West Bank, this means that Israel has not taken over the land of another country, and also because of this this terrotory cant be called as "occupied".

Those international agreements as they deal with the occupation its at the same the abolish it (especially Oslo Accords).

Do you have an evidence to support your argument that the Jews accepted the partition plan just because it was a good political sense? (I really want to know because I never found one).

I know that, and still the world didnt recognize wither Palestine nor its borders.

* Can they move around freely? yes.
* Are Israeli social services available to them? believe it or not there is Arabs there that go to madical care inside of Israel (and the same situation in Gaza)
The Arabs dont have fully Israeli rights because they are not Israeli citizens, because they dont want to be part of Israel (thats why the PA been founded), but of course there is Israeli Arabs in the West Bank.

Of course because they dont want Jewish state near them (and i'm not refering to Egypt and Jurdan that Israel have peace treaty with them, and Lebanon).

Plan Dalet was a pland by the Hagannah that formed after a group of Arabs shooted on Jewish bus in Petach- Tikva on September, 30th, 1947- the action that started the Independence wer.
After this action the hagannah formed Plan Dalet that primarily preparate the Jewish community for the invasion of the Arab nations, and the secondly reason was to evecuate by force Arab to leave their houses, BUT it would be happen just if the Arabs wil active recistance.
Let us not forget that Plan Dalet was was partly oparated, and the only Arab village that happend what was written on Plan Dalet was Arab village of Deir Yassin and the rest was evecuated by choice and with the help of the British.

 

Notwithstanding that the Oslo articles quoted don't for a moment say that the parties recognize that there is no occupation.
There wouldn't even be an Oslos accords if it wasn't for the damn occupation in the first place.

As for GC obligations:

I am glad that apart from reprisals, arbitrary destruction of property, transfering population, collective punishment,and arguably one or two more items, you haven't listed wrt to welfare of occupied peoples, I guess you are right.


As to palestinians moving around freely. Yeah right. How many checkpoints are there? Is there free passage between Gaza and the WB? YOu have the queerest notion of what moving around freely means.


YOur take on Plan Dalet is nonsense. Maybe you think that three or four hundred previously arab villages were eradicated came about because the arabs voluntarily abandoned them, in which case I'd like to introduce you to my Nigerian Prince friend.

YOu seem to be saying that many arabs in the west bank are israeli citizens (apart from those that accepted citizenship in east jerusalem or permanent residency status that is)? do you have any evidence of this phenomena?

Never mind. Its pointless to argue. I don't blame you for drinking the koolaid, but your distorted sense of history, your misinterpretation of international law and agreements, all amount to an intransigent position incapable of ascertaining the myriad shades of grey that exist in such a long running and complex conflict.

Righteous belief has never made a positive contribution to poltical resolution.

 

In Oslo Accords was written there that the Israeli military will continue to be there and to do what he always did- protect, and when the parties recognize that the military need to be in the West Bank so it cant be called occupied territories no more beacuse the parties agreed to it, if the PLO didnt agree to the existance of the military in the West Bank and if it was written in Oslo Accords, then you could say occupation.

thank you!

The IDF really do checkpoints, but the IDF dont stop from the Arabs to move around freely, just if there is Arab that are moving drags from one Arab village to another, or if there is Arab that come to attack soldiers just like that, with out the soldiers doing to him nothing, so for those kind of Arabs the Military stops and delaying them, because they doing illegal stuff, but they after several minutes let them free so still freedom of movement isnt compromised!

Hamas- the ruler in Gaza dont want anything to do with the West Bank and the PA, the movment that control the PA is Fatah, and Hamas and Fatah are enemies to each other that dont like it. For exemple lets take when Israel evecuated from Gaza, after it in Gaza was an electioins and Hamas knew that in those elections that Fatah will win (because in Gaza there is a vast majority that soppurt Fatah), so you know what Hamas did? Hamas did violent revolution that after the revolt Fatah started to focus only on the West Bank- this are facts! If you know about the history of this region you need to know that.

All what i wrote to you regarding Plan Dalet is all facts that happened and whats Plan Dalet is all about, this is not my opinion about Plan Dalet.

Yes i have, here you go:

You can see that total Israeli Arabs that you had in Gaza, Israel and The West Bank was 1,299,000 in 2003.
This table brought from the article of Bennett Zimmerman, Roberta Seid and
Michael L. Wise that they made in 2006.
Source: http://www.biu.ac.il/Besa/MSPS65.pdf

You know the funny thing is that I already gave you that table of population in my first thread in this forum from 2013.

I gave you in my previous comments here paragraphs from the Geneva Conventions and how it is taking place nowadays, this is not my interpatition, it is just facts that happen! It is sad that you dont want to acknowladge it.

I gave you (even in this comment) facts about the conflict, not beliefs, and you still dont want to acknoladge it. Its funny you know? because in your earlier comments to me you said you will be happy to hear about the facts of this conflict, but I soppuse you dont really want any facts.