Mr. Putin, NOBODY wants your war

I am excited about and in support of the many demonstrations for peace around the world:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/scenes-from-anti-war-protests-around-the-world

In Berlin, more than 100,000 took to the street. good on my compatriots.

In Russia, Putin's own citizens are protesting for peace, at great risk to their own safety. Listen to your own country men, Mr. Putin, they like Ukrainians, many have friends there, they want nothing to do with your petty war.

It's time to stop this insanity.

 

There are also reports of Russian soldiers walking into towns and surrendering along with their equipment.
5000 Russian soldiers have refused to go into Ukraine
Some have punctured holes in their own fuel tanks in trucks and tanks
They are also plagued with food and gas shortages

I guess Putin never thought he would be a week into this and still hasn't taken Ukraine yet

 

The Russians are a very traumatised people. They had centuries under one of the most repressive monarchies in history, then decades under Lenin and Stalin and Co, then a tough, heavily corrupt transition under Yeltsin and Putin, cue 20 years of Putin's illiberal leadership.

The tendency they have developed is to keep their heads down and respect authority. Large segments of the population still have a positive approval of Stalin.

It would be naive to think they have the same passion of liberty some of us do. I am pessimistic that they'll rise up and overthrow Putin over this.

Where does that leave us? I don't know. Concession to Putin to end the war or a major escalation possibly leading to nuclear war, I guess.

God help the Russians chuck him out, it's the only remotely positive end to all of this - but I have my doubts. We're in a real pickle here.

 

That's incredible! Where did you hear this? Can you supply a link? Thanks.

 

Hate has NEVER solved anything. Not one thing...ever. We claim to be "the most intelligent species" but still act in anger? Beyond ridiculous.

 

I have been watching several news broadcast all day and hearing these claims.
But I did find some links associated with the news broadcast
5,000 Russian Soldiers Riot, Refuse to Go to Ukraine
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/20...Russian-Soldiers-Riot-Refuse-to-Go-to-Ukraine
Russian troops in Ukraine are surrendering, sabotaging their own vehicles, Pentagon officials say
https://theweek.com/russo-ukrainian...ukraine-are-surrendering-sabotaging-their-own
Some Russian troops are surrendering or sabotaging vehicles rather than fighting, a Pentagon official says.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/01/world/europe/russia-troops-pentagon.html
Report: 40-mile Russian convoy headed to Kyiv has stalled due to food and fuel shortages
https://www.audacy.com/wccoradio/ne...-headed-to-kyiv-stalled-due-to-fuel-shortages

 

I was thinking, what the hell is that screen shot about. lol

 

I am not saying the Russians are about to overthrow Putin any moment now. However, we saw the protests in Belarus against Lukashenko. Something similar could happen in Russia. Putin has to see that he has ZERO support, even from his own people and his own army. This is his war, and nobody else's. How long can he fight from being in the corner? Even some of his oligarch friends are hating the job the sanctions are doing on their bank accounts. Putin is in a VERY bad position right now. And it is all self inflicted.

 

Many thanks-- those are stories I have not heard, are very surprising to read, and offer some reason for optimism!

I had heard of the Kyrgystan region, earlier, refusing to send troops (so that, in fact, Putin sent troops there, to guard against insurrection), but not these professional contract soldiers, near the Ukranian border, refusing to go. Also, I had heard of the vandalism of Russian equipment, but did not suspect that some of it was coming from the Russians, themselves! That they would surrender-- and risk, no doubt, incredibly serious consequences, back home-- speaks to how objectional, many of Putin's troops, find, what they have been tasked to do. And not just individuals, but entire regiments! I wonder how greatly, their place of origin figures into this. That is, will it mostly only be the troops who come from around Ukraine, who will carry this banner?
I also am curious as to how the Ukranian Army, is handling the "internment," of these surrendering Russians.


I, also, can pass along a positive assessment, which I'd just heard on t.v., in an interview with the former Russian Foreign Minister-- the equivalent of our Secretary of State-- who now, apparently, lives in Florida. When Andrei Kozyrev was Foreign Minister, in fact, the current Foreign Minister, Sergei Lavrov, was his assistant (and Kozyrev says, if Lavrov was behind him, now, he would watch his back).

But, to the possible excuse for optimism, when Kozyrev was asked whether he thought that Western sanctions could cause the oligarchs-- who, over here, we have generally been regarding as dependent on Putin, and not the other way around-- could put bring pressure to bear on Putin, he said that they could. He described the oligarchs as not only receiving benefits, but performing important tasks, in seeing that things ran smoothly. So Kozyrev compared them to the engine of a car, with which any driver required the cooperation. While Putin could certainly replace these people, at will, that would probably only further set back the effort to deliver fuel & other supplies to the troops (not to mention, domestic needs), with new people being inserted, under the hood, when the system is already being so taxed, by the job.


I will add on more note about Kozyrev's comments, in his saying that one of the strongest signs we send, of Putin's error in judgement, is when our Congress is united, along with our President, in this enterprise, of opposing Putin. This is given even more weight, by the words of U.S. diplomatic corps, Russia specialist & Putin expert, Fiona Hill, who sees trying to use our foreign affairs problem with Russia, for PARTISAN ends, as to be falling into the same patterns that we swore we wouldn't repeat, after the last World War:

[SNIP]

Hill spent many years studying history, and in our conversation, she repeatedly traced how long arcs and trends of European history are converging on Ukraine right now. We are already, she said, in the middle of a third World War, whether we’ve fully grasped it or not.

“Sadly, we are treading back through old historical patterns that we said that we would never permit to happen again,” Hill told me.

Those old historical patterns include Western businesses who fail to see how they help build a tyrant’s war chest, admirers enamored of an autocrat’s “strength” and politicians’ tendency to point fingers inward for political gain instead of working together for their nation’s security.




But at the same time, Hill says it’s not too late to turn Putin back, and it’s a job not just for the Ukrainians or for NATO — it’s a job that ordinary Westerners and companies can assist in important ways once they grasp what’s at stake.


“Ukraine has become the front line in a struggle, not just between democracies and autocracies but in a struggle for maintaining a rules-based system in which the things that countries want are not taken by force,” Hill said. “Every country in the world should be paying close attention to this.”

[END SNIP]

https://news.yahoo.com/world-war-iii-already-184545712.html


While we are making all those mistakes, once more, there are signs that change is possible. We are in very different times, regarding citizen action, affecting business decisions. And, to their credit, even though there is no way this is going to be a net bonus, to their bottom line, BP (British Petroleum), which is Russia's largest foreign investor, is quitting Russia, & was willing to take a potentially $25 billion charge to their balance sheet (loss), by doing so. Not only will this reduce funds for a cash- hungry Russia, but will deprive them, I assume, of Western equipment and, certainly, of Western expertise which, it is my understanding, is something upon which the Russian fuel industry has continued to rely.


http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/oil-giant-bp-quits-russia.597453/


Oh-- I almost forgot to mention-- Alexei Navalny issued a call today, to keep up the anti-war protests. Who knew, while under arrest in Russia, he could issue, even statements, much less uncensored calls for civil disobedience!


Each of these things, on their own, might seem inconsequential, but one cannot turn one's back on them, honestly saying that there is no reason for hope, dark though things may currently seem. It is a valuable lesson to keep in mind, I believe, that one's expectations can exert a great effect on one's results. Not that unrealistic optimism, conquers all obstacles, but that unnecessary pessimism, leads to a missing of opportunities, to make a positive difference. Whatever the final resolution of this crisis, it will be a cumulative result: either a synergistic victory, or a defeat, marked with cynicism.

 

Just wow. There is so much resistance to Putins idiocy. I loved hearing about the Russian soldiers. I was thinking the same thing that these guys have family or friends in Ukraine as well not to mention killing Russian civilians.

Its a dark place Putin has put these soldiers in and I hope he pays for these war crimes. That would be huge. Not to mention if Ukraine actually pulls this off, what is China thinking about Taiwan? This could put a lot of good things in motion if Zelensky survives and Ukraine holds them off

 

Good point, that China cannot be too thrilled with how things are going, vis a vis the world's unity & the signs of their determination. Being able to keep military aggression in check, at least sometimes, by this mechanism, rather than through more military intercession, would definitely be a step forward, for the world (what might military suppliers be thinking, about the course of events?). But China is a different animal than Russia, as I'm sure you realize. Gas and oil are really the only two valuable commodities, Russia provides to the world economy, so all that need be done, to minimize the side-effects of freezing them out, is to find other sources of fuel.

China, however, is so bound up in the production chains of the world economy, that similar sanctions, against them, are a difficult thing to contemplate.

 

Russians need to revolt. Largest country in the world per square feet but only the the GDP of Florida. I know it's hard considering they have been oppressed, but their lives will never get better if they don't stand up to tyranny.

 

Putin doesn’t care about his people. Therefore he doesn’t care about how sanctions will devastate his people. He will still live the high life.

It’s like everybody is ****ing delusional. Putin has ALREADY planned for massive sanctions. He doesn’t care about that. What he cares about is reestablishing the old Soviet borders. Once he does that and he hasn’t started a world war because the west is too scared, THEN he will worry about the economy.

 

The problem is protests don’t not matter to dictators. China seems to be okay with it as well and likely will be the next to start a violent front.

 

I agree. I think he has ambitions that will be held back by sanctions very little. Finland will probably be next.

 

Not sure why we’re even talking about Ukraine anymore. It’s obvious what we will do and it’s just sit back and watch them die, let the country become Russian. We all know that will be the outcome. There may be some gorilla type warfare for a while but the country will be under Russian control and it’s likely the president of Ukraine will be killed. So if we won’t change the outcome why even give it news time?

 

If you’re not part of nato and you’re in Europe, then you should get your ass in and send some troops to the Ukraine. Cause that crazy bastard is coming for you next.

 

That is certainly what Trump's national security adviser says Trump would have done, but the American people decisively opted for a different course in November, 2020, and the U.S. leadership role among democratic nations is being restored.

John Bolton says Trump wouldn't have stood in Putin's way ​

Trump's "savvy genius" doesn't seem to have taken the American electorate seriously, either.

Trump's having continually crapped on NATO failed as well, backfiring on the KGB thug who conspired to help Trump get elected to serve Russia's interests.

They’ve been neutral for decades. But war in Ukraine is making Sweden and Finland reconsider
​

Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has profoundly changed Europe’s security outlook, including for Nordic neutrals Finland and Sweden, where support for joining NATO has surged to record levels.

A poll commissioned by Finnish broadcaster YLE this week showed that, for the first time, more than 50% of Finns support joining the transatlantic military alliance. In neighboring Sweden, a similar poll showed those in favor of NATO membership outnumbering those against.

“The unthinkable might start to become thinkable,” tweeted former Swedish Prime Minister Carl Bildt, a proponent of NATO membership.​

 

How did Trump "continually crapped on NATO"? He did nothing to NATO but asked them to be stronger.

Why is it the job of the USA to defend rich white European nations but not their job to defend themselves?

 

The lies keep coming. Now NATO(Other than us) are systemically victimized.

Let's dissolve NATO and let the EU defend themselves. We will focus on the pacific.

The EU had 3X the population and 8X the economy of Russia. They should defend themselves. The USA and UK can help some but it is high time we stopped bankrupting ourselves defending rich white people.

 

The brilliance of Trump! You have libos united with people named Cheney and Bolton. What does that say?

All part of the same neocon swamp.

 

So?

The key is to help the Ukrainians kill as many Russians as possible. Let Putin have his quagmire like we had Iraq.

 

The only way to stop it would be to go to war with Russia? Do you support that? Of course nobody wants Putin's war. Not exactly the same thing as doing something about it.

 

It would be very interesting to watch our response to a similar violent action by China. As has been said, we are dependent upon them for so much supply of so many things. If there was a stop to imports, Walmart would go out of business. How many Americans would support that? Its all fine and good to label the actions of a dictator in another country is a bad thing until it makes our own comfy lives uncomfortable.

 

Severing economic ties with China would be difficult but probably necessary in the long run. I would give importers a few months to move production elsewhere and then divorce completely from China. I wouldn't worry about Walmart. They will take care of themselves. Using China is easy. They should be strong enough to do something that is a little harder.

I say all of this as an e-merchant whose product line is mostly made in China. I continue to sell Chinese made products because it is what my American customers want. We need to change those wants. I would be happy to join Walmart in doing things that are a little harder in order to help my country.