My standpoint as an israeli jewish

Not overly proficient in reading English are you if you can read Seems to me if the Palestinians have hundreds 0f grad rockets (whatever they are) Israel would be feeling a lot more pain. as my preferred final solution.

Can you point me at any part of that which says.....I wish the Palestinians would fire those hundreds of grad rockets Netanyahu claims they have on Israel and sort them out once and for all?

But then interpretation of plain english is not a pro-Zionist's strong point, is it?

 

interpretation of ANYTHING said by someone who disagrees with them has never been a prozionists strong point.

the Pro zionist always second guesses the perceived meaning behind what others say - with the aid of a heavy dose of persecution complex.

This leads to an interpretation of, for example - "the Palestinians have a right to their own state" becoming "I support the Final Solution and Hitler was my hero".

 

I'll be glad to point it out for you!

Seems to me if the Palestinians have hundreds 0f grad rockets (whatever they are) Israel would be feeling a lot more pain.

Always glad to help!

 

Oddquine did not write that he/she wished for rockets to be fired at Israel. So, maybe such is what Zionist desire? That could explain why they continue to reject the nation of Palestine. Often, it seems as if Zionists pressure or provoke Palestinians to respond to violence so that Zionists can beg Uncle Sam for more Guilt Complex funding.

 

the firing of rockets most certainly IS desirable for the Zionist cause - they use it to justify the stance they take.

every time a palestinian rocket is fired, Israel gets another opportunity to justify their position, including justifying the collateral damage of innocent lives.

 

Not a bad thread.

Borat, I note your complaint about peoples obsession with criticism of israel and your attempt to thus call this anti-semitism.

I wonder, do you think of yourself when you think about the debate over israel? Arent you just as concerned with israel as others? Your certainly on these threads often enough.

Also, do you think this obsessive concern has something to do with actual judaism? Do you think the people criticial here are also critical of jewish people on a personal level - this is the actual anti semitism you speak of. Its not something you can just apply to any cause involving jewish people you like.

Indeed i put it to you that you are insulting the memory of jewish victims over 60 years ago with your casual use of the term. You have indeed little concern for their real sufferings except in the cause of your defence of israel, isnt that shameful?

<<< Mod Edit: Flamebaiting >>>

 

I thank you for your concern, my sympathy doesnt mean the destruction of Israel, two states can co-exist, at least i believe so. and many in israel have sympathy and think we need to withdraw - that doesnt mean our claim on the israeli side of 67 borders isnt legit,

there is no reason to panic,israel existance is assured even if arab countries disapprove it, if the palestinians want a country by 67 borders we can have an agreemnet on that

 

You seem to forget that Hamas objects this move and being armed they can also spark the fire at any time, Israel has an intrest to be the sweetest kid in the block right now.

 

The rational of Jews get more than the rest, is just part of your irrational hatered, israel doesnt expect more rights than any other country - we fight those that fight us and we'll stop if we have a genuine peace agreement, you'll have us surrender to the enemy right now and by failing that you accuse that we seek more than any other country, that's blind hatred and not an objective opinion.

 

Not that great at logical thinking and seeing past the end of Israel's nose, are you, Gilos.....reminds me a lot of the failure of America to do forward thinking?

Sure Hamas is armed....but not with tanks and heavy artillery etc as Israel is...so anything they could do would be like a gnat-bite to the Israeli knee...in fact a gnat-bite with regard to previous efforts is exaggerating the effect of previous rockets.

And bear in mind that Israel spawned Hamas...so Israel is reaping what they sowed in order to decimate Fatah....much as the USA spawned Saddam Hussein to control Iraq.....and look what happened there. If you encourage terrorists...guess what, you get terrorists!

Israel also spawned the situation in Gaza by the refusal to accept Hamas, the political wing, as the democratically elected Government of the PA. Ghettoising and collectively punishing a whole population because you don't approve of the leaders you were instrumental in dumping on them was only the best available option if you wanted escalated resistance for your own purposes.

I am aware that it suits Israel well enough to have Hamas continuing to do the dirty work of continued (and frankly stupid and counter-productive) resistance, as it just hands Israel its excuse for continuing settlements and trying to ensure the Palestinians have their state on as little land as you can manage..if they ever get it at all.

I have as little sympathy for Hamas's actions as I have ever had for those of Israel....but at least I can understand why Hamas is doing what it does, even as I abhor those actions..however, I fail to understand the mindset of an Israeli government which is still prepared to swap peace for land.

If Hamas is your problem, then the logical thing to do would be to give Abbas the ability to deal with Hamas as terrorists....and that can only happen with a State encompassing Gaza and the West Bank and membership of the UN....because you know something....I think the Palestinians will be much better at adhering to International Law within the UN than Israel (or the USA) has ever been.

I don't do blind hatred of anybody/thing, not even, as a Scottish Nationalist, the English. ....... but I certainly do extreme irritation at what I perceive as rank stupidity. Nobody ever does completely objective opinions...but some of us do try for a modicum of even handedness if the post to which we are replying warrants it.

However, I think objective, in your terms, equates to supporting the actions of the Israeli government, whatever they do.....but, being honest here....if Israel ever did anything good for the Palestinians I would certainly comment on it in favourable terms.., but I can't say I have noticed anything since I joined this forum for which to praise them. Can you give me a list?

Anyway back to brass tacks, Gilos....seems to me that if the majority of Palestinians support Abbas and his efforts, an agreement is reached a state is born and Hamas continues to fight......then that makes Hamas a terrorist group....doesn't it? Or is that too obvious for you?

Now I am very sure that, provided they have the weapons to do so, the interim Palestinian Government will do their utmost to ensure that terrorists, Hamas or otherwise, are stopped..just as I am sure Israel will do their utmost to ensure that settler terrorists (who will exist going by their present performances)

However, I know of no other country which demands part of its neighbour's land as a buffer zone and demands that its neighbour is not allowed the ability to defend itself against them. A demilitarisation of any Palestinian State to any level is something for agreement, not something to be demanded, as is any buffer zone...and the demands are because Israel thinks they are entitled to live without the terrorism that other countries put up with regularly.

Nursing paranoia and planning policy around that paranoia is much the best way of achieving self-fulfilling prophecies, don't you think?

 

You dont need to use insults to make a case, unless you feel its lacking?

im sure you'll agree that it doesnt matter what weapon kills a man just that he's dead, Hamass wont be able to defeat israel thats true but we wont agree to be fired rockets at every day, shots on highways, bomb attacks etc', it may look like a pc game to you with an uneven forces but in real life my friend every death from hatred attack is simply un acceptable, more over when they occure on daily basis for years (you dont hear about succesful IDF thwarting , there are many more attemps each day and most are foiled)

Ofc it all our fault, i didnt think for a sec you and others here would think otherwise, but in this case i dont see the connection between Hamas creation and that now they have both interst and ability to fuk any theoretical peace talks with Fatah - yet you guys only mention Israel evil schems, when somthing will happen you already establshed who is at fault - that's biased

No, its was their militant actions, kidnapping of our soldier, rocket attacks every day for 6 months!, suicide attacks, shooting incidents, weapon smuggeling - that caused us to blockade Gaza,

what effect does refusal to accept Hamas have when Hamass refuses to accept Israel as whole??- not just its goverment,

was the fact that we denied them the oppertunity to hang the phone in our faces when we tried to call the cause for war?

Funny, you started this post suggesting your words are the voice of reason,
if israel doesnt want to see an end to this feud, doesnt care about its casulties and only wants to keep its terretories - why did we retreat from Gaza? we were not under any special pressure to do it (other than normal), the gov had alot to lose in terms of politic support, why did we pull off palestinian cities in arafat days inj the first place?

you dont know that because the palestinians refuse peace talks, in the past they had bad deals and good deals but now is all that matters, its elementry that Israel wil give land back, Bibi said it many times, how much and for what guarentees should be discussed in peace talks - unless you think Israel should'nt exist at all in which case you really cant complain about israel distrust.

lol, based on what? many attacks were made by simple citizens- not trained commando of the Hamas, the Ramala lynch was made by an angry mob fro example,

im not saying the majority doesnt want to have normal lives but dont try to picture them as innocent flowers, here a 3 y old knows what is hatred, mainly our fault no daught but still somthing we need to think about (israelies anyway)

Again with the insults? why im offended.......

again attacking on biased ideas that has nothing to do with the person you talk to, i criticzed my gov many times in this forum and supported the 67 borders,
As im not hasbara and have no interst to "rally" you to our cause, im not going to groval before you.....give u a list? give me a break....

I'm thrilled...

Now I am very sure that, provided they have the weapons to do so, the interim Palestinian Government will do their utmost to ensure that terrorists, Hamas or otherwise, are stopped..just as I am sure Israel will do their utmost to ensure that settler terrorists (who will exist going by their present performances)

I didnt understand the first section,

Other countries also suffer from terrorist attacks but you cant compare the rates of attacks on israel to that of any other country in the world, if that's not a fact i dont know what is.

live in israel for several months than talk to me about paranoia,

lol, some modesty when you speak to a local about his own country...

 

I think youll find that the gazan conflict between israel and hamas was started by israeli refusal to lift control of gazan borders at any stage even before the hamas election to power.

This offensive action cannot be tolerated by anyone.

And before you go on about hamas's charter, much like likuds it doesnt mean it cant be made peace with. Hamas leaders have repeatedly stated an acceptance of the 67 borders.

As for your last point about attacks. It is in fact israel that makes far more regular and consistent attacks upon its surrounding population. The blockade it imposes and the settlement building and protection is done every single second of every single day.

Hamas, PLO, Jihad brigade rockets, even stone throwing could never and never has cometed with that.

Please answer these points, itll make a change from your side of this debate.

 

Very good points, thank you.