Part 10 of Post Your Tough Questions Regarding Christianity

You, no doubt, are twisting WanRen's words deliberately and deceptively into words he hasn't spoken.

He did not say that his morals, his desire to do good, are predicated on fear of eternal consequence....you said it, not him.

The correct interpretation of what he said is that we will all (Christians as well as atheists) have consequences of doing good and bad in this world.

However the Christians take it a step further by believing there will be further consequences in the after life. The atheists don't share that belief, they only believe that consequences of doing good and bad only exist in this life here on earth.

WanRen goes on to further say because of what the atheists believe, they don't care what evil they do or sufferings they inflict on others because if there are consequences it will be only in this world since to them there is no such thing as an after-life consequence that is eternal in nature.

And so WanRen didn't say that Christians don't do evil, or don't inflict sufferings on to others. Because all Christians know that we are all sinners, every last single one of us on God's green earth are sinners.

Just that the Christians believe not only are there consequences here on earth in this life but there will be further consequences in the after-life that is eternal in nature as well.

 

Yes, and it is fear of those consquences that prevents a christian from any behaviour that may incur them. Its one of religion foundational tenents. Fear of God's judgement.

And I say atheists am not motivated to be moral because of the judgement of a God that they don't believe in, nor in the afterlife where this judgement is said to take place.

I say humans are social animals and as such have evolved a pattern of genetic and cultural behaviours to successfully co-exist and flourish. I need no god to tell me what is moral or not and for me its predicated on the one "rule of morality" that is almost universal throughout human cultures from day one, and that is the golden rule of "do unto others" - everything stems from that.

Atheists understand the nature of consequences and responsibilty for their actions as much as any theist. But they also realize that there is no such thing as absolution and the full weight of those consequences and responsiblities must be suffered in this, their only life.

Those with borderline personality disorder are both genetically and psychologically defective, and that has nothing to do with God. By definition, those people have no concept of a moral framework.

 

Rather like the pot calling the kettle black. WarRen does the same. I've had reason to point this out to him more than once.

 

Atheists hate God and Christians because they are actually not confident that God does not exist and seeing Christians may remind them that they are "suppressing the truth"

Scripture tells us, "But God shows His anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. They know the truth about God because He has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see His invisible qualities---His eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.

Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship Him as God or even give Him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. And instead of worshipping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshipped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles.

So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshipped and served the things God created instead of the Creator Himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved.

Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, He abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They invent new ways of sinning, and they disobey their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, are heartless, and have no mercy. They know God's justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.---Romans 1:18-32 NLT

 

To continue on from my previous post, many atheists complain about hell; they are angry at God because of hell.

Some of the atheists who had a religious upbringing hate God because of evil things done to them by teachers in religious schools or by church leaders—people who on the face of it represented God. Antipathy towards God is an understandable reaction, sadly...although illogical.

There's just a myriad of reasons why atheists hate God and Christians...I could write a book about them. Those I have presented are just a small sample.

 

This makes no sense....why would anyone hate something that does not exist?

An Atheist...obviously does not think these things exist.

 

Atheists hate God and Christians because they are actually not confident that God does not exist and seeing Christians may remind them that they are "suppressing the truth"

 

The most evil kind of creatures that reside here on earth...sinful, wicked human beings!

That is somehow debatable.

 

As an actual Atheist I think I may have insight you do not....so allow me to help you in your understanding.

WE DO NOT BELIEVE IN YOUR GOD....and thus cannot hate it. Though, many find the followers quite annoying.

 

Then there is the possibility that you may believe in another god? I mean... you specifically ruled out "YOUR GOD", giving reference to the God that MR would take a liking to.

 

Maybe we need to distinguish between not believing in his god, but believing that the evidence that he imagines his god is quite persuasive. We can't read minds, but if someone did NOT imagine a god, surely they would behave differently. Of course there is always the danger of reifying the pattern of neural firings which is subjectively experienced as belief, and thinking that if your brain fires those neurons in that way, therefore the belief reflects something that exists outside the brain.

Similary, there is a distinction between disliking a delusion you don't suffer, and disliking those whose delusions turn them into nuisances.

 

At the red letter text above: Therefore, you can only guess.

 

Sorry you feel human kind is so bad.

 

Well, he is apparently not the only person who thinks like that. See here:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_most_vicious_animal_on_earth

 

So are you speaking on behalf of all the atheists in the world because they had made you their representative?

You know, that is a typical response by an atheist to say, "WE DO NOT BELIEVE IN YOUR GOD....and thus cannot hate it." Or, "We don't hate what does not exist!"

So how do you atheists know God does not exist? If you can't give me some rational reason for denying God's existence then your position is held by faith. In that case, why do atheists condemn believers for their faith in God?

So the atheists claim, "We don't hate what does not exist"...But then you see atheists site OT Scriptures where God does what they think is morally reprehensible...which is ludicrous since they have no objective and absolute morals by which to make such judgments. Many believe morals are subjective.

They complain, mock, and pronounce ethical condemnation against the God of the Bible...just like you would do to someone you hate.

All the regular condemnation of God, many atheists accuse God of his immorality, speaking evil of him, etc. clearly demonstrates that they hate God.

We believers see this clearly demonstrated here at the PF.

Hmmm.... So, they really do hate God.

You claim that many (atheists, and I presume it also includes yourself) find the followers quite annoying and yet many of you continually come to the religion forum to confront followers because I guess you all like being annoyed by them...lol

Like they say, "If you can't handle the heat...get out of the kitchen"....no pun intended.

 

I see....so you are the representative Christian who gets to decide on Atheists?

Atheism IS the disbelief in God.

 

So everything I said in my last post, you are in disagreement with? You deny atheists condemn the God of the bible? You deny atheists complain, mock, and pronounce ethical condemnation against the God of the Bible?

Well sir, if you deny them then you sir are clearly a liar.

If you do not deny them, then you sir, admit that atheists hate God.

 

If WanRen was professing of being a Deist, he would have said so in the above post, however he said no such thing, you said it because you are misinterpreting what he is saying...what else is new with you miscons?...lol

Kinda like how yall misinterpret Scripture. Just futile attempts to discredit, whether it be to discredit the bible or individuals such as my friend WanRen here.

You, no doubt, are over reacting to WR's post as well as misinterpreting it. WR stated that, "God has finish His creation everything is left to man and the universe to take its course"

He is not implying that God is hands off as far as being involved with the affairs of mankind...(that would be deism) but that God is hands off as far as creating goes. Man is now creating of what God has given mankind using the raw materials that God created for us to use.

WR never said that God has abandoned us, but just that His creating directly is finished.

 

Do you think wanren is correct? God is done creating?

 

You make assumptions to support your preconceived position, by doing so you present yourself as dishonest of ignorant.....or both. Firstly, by stating that ALL Atheists act in concert somehow....which is impossible. Secondly, you seem to confuse my condemnation of yourself with attacking your God.

I personally, have never bothered to attack your God....if only because it would be like punching the air. I have however debated the existence of such a thing with people on an internet forum.

 

You were the one that said, "As an actual Atheist I think I may have insight you do not....so allow me to help you in your understanding.

WE DO NOT BELIEVE IN YOUR GOD....and thus cannot hate it."

So why did you say we? By saying "we" you are essentially saying "all atheists"

Your statement is the same as saying, "We atheists (all of us) do not believe in your God...and thus we all cannot hate it."

Now tell me who is really the dishonest or ignorant one or both?

No, I'm not confused, you are the one that's confused. You have made quite a bit of statements mocking, condemning God.

You are quoted saying,

"Okay....hows this:

If God said everything under the heavens perished, unless it was a fish....he was wrong.
God supposedly cannot be wrong.
If God said all the mountains were under 13 cubits of water....he was wrong.
If God actually had done these things...he is so evil as to be unworthy of anything but disgust, by his own standards."

http://www.politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=289044&page=34&p=1062315207#post1062315207

You also said this, "Thank you for providing an excellent example of how a religion based on love creates hatred and death.

Your "God" would be proud."

http://www.politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=289044&page=58&p=1062335957#post1062335957

And this,

"Would that not make heaven....pure Hell?"

http://www.politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=292067&page=49&p=1062390305#post1062390305

And this,

"Golly....what a swell fellow this God person is.

Excuse me while I go stomp on my sisters goldfish."

http://www.politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=293827&page=12&p=1062408793#post1062408793

And this,

"If we are to believe the Bible...God is far more evil than Satan could ever be.

This "God" thingy has killed more people than any war, plague, or natural disaster in history....what a swell fella"

http://www.politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=293827&page=28&p=1062427315#post1062427315

There are more quotes but hey I aint got all day to present them all...lol

So all the quotes I listed makes you a liar then right?...by you saying, "I personally, have never bothered to attack your God"

Clearly your quotes illustrate that you hate God. And so I want to repeat what I said a few posts ago in that, atheists hate God and Christians because they are actually not confident that God does not exist and seeing Christians may remind them that they are "suppressing the truth"

And I also want to add that maybe not all of them but easily the majority of them hate God.

 

I doubt the majority of atheists even think about god. Your impression seems to be based on the postings here. Those I know never mention god - apart from the expression 'oh god'. Unless, of course, the subject is brought up.

 

Your 2nd dodge, noted.

 

Quote Originally Posted by Mitt Ryan View Post
You were the one that said, "As an actual Atheist I think I may have insight you do not....so allow me to help you in your understanding.

WE DO NOT BELIEVE IN YOUR GOD....and thus cannot hate it."

So why did you say we? By saying "we" you are essentially saying "all atheists"

Your statement is the same as saying, "We atheists (all of us) do not believe in your God...and thus we all cannot hate it."

Now tell me who is really the dishonest or ignorant one or both?



Reply.

Seems a reasonable statement to me. To be an Atheist you do not believe in a god, otherwise you are an agnostic or believer. You cannot hate a thing you do not believe in. You can only hate the idea of it as portrayed by its believers, or the persons who do believe.

So all the quotes are directed at your idea/beliefs of 'God', not a non-existent (to the atheist) god.

 

If a flying unicorn with purple ears did it then it would have revealed itself to us but we have no revelation coming from this flying unicorn, we only have revelation coming from God the Creator.

If no personal being did it then all this existence happened by mere accident. For me personally, I just can't accept that belief. Everything we see in our universe, in our lives, appears to be the work of an intelligent, supreme being, an Almighty Creator who designed everything.

There are natural laws that govern the universe, laws that govern human morality, why would there be any such laws if everything came about accidentally?

Everything just accidentally appeared one day starting from the big bang and here we are, nothing caused it, it just happened...nah! I just can't buy that!

I believe a personal being did it, a personal being that is Eternal, God the Creator who has revealed Himself to us by writing a book for us, the Holy Bible, and by giving us His only begotten Son Jesus Christ who died for us shedding His innocent blood on the cross in order to save mankind from their sins.

And please let's be honest, we all are guilty of sins, (excluding babies and children not of culpable/accountable age) we all have done wrong in our lives that justifies a judgment from our Creator.

Now if you don't want to accept this revelation that is your choice to make, God has given all of us the gift of free will to choose, to choose to believe in Him or not to believe in Him.