Part 39 of Post Your Tough Questions Regarding Christianity

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Mitt Ryan, Oct 27, 2021.

  1. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    My instincts are mine, yes. And geology doesn't say anything. It is other men's reviews and conclusions about collected data. My knowledge that God lives is likewise personal and not based on other men's conclusions. Knowing that God lives, and that his Prophets, Patriarchs, and Priests made no statements about evolution, but rather of creation and salvation. Then I am persuaded to trust in the accuracy of their recollections.
     
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  2. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    I don't buy the "rocks aren't real" argument. Sorry. Geologists are willing to talk to me about evidence. You are offering only feelings.
     
  3. Dirty Rotten Imbecile

    Dirty Rotten Imbecile Well-Known Member

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    Yeah! That’s it!
     
  4. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Well, it's it's too hard to discuss here how much evidence exists through ancient to modern times or how much there would have to be in order to be convincing. Obviously, scientists find a tiny fraction of material from ancient life, for one thing. Earth has major recycling systems. If there were fragments of every life form that has lived on Earth, there would be no way to even just contain it. Plus, one can always say "god did that" no mater what is found.

    However, one can note that all animals have evolved. Plus, all animals and humans are evolving even now. In fact, ancient to modern agriculture has used evolution to bring us the food crops and animals that sustain us.

    We humans have all the "equipment" needed to evolve, just as all plants and animals have - all life outside of some exceptional groups such as bacteria.


    What's much harder to explain is the idea that the history of one life form, humans, could be so dramatically different than all plants and other animals, when humans share all the requirements and machinery for evolution and actually do continue to evolve.

    Nobody has found an explanation for that.

    In fact, there are no theories that compete with evolution and there has been no proof of falsity.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2023
  5. Dirty Rotten Imbecile

    Dirty Rotten Imbecile Well-Known Member

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  6. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    This isn't a competition with your religion.

    Also, I don't see evidence in the Bible that God built this universe or any part of it with the purpose of fooling us. In fact, I believe there is a verse in Genesis and possibly other places that makes it clear that nature is open for us to explore.

    One can't just throw out the evidence that is our natural world.

    Geology itself is a strong method of cross checking dating. There are numerous ways to date material that is found. The methods used for dating a sample are chosen very carefully, as no scientist wants to be pointed out has having made mistakes.
     
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  7. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    Point taken. But even setting aside God, the idea of the evolution of man from animals, strains credulity and has no basis in reality. It is wonky. In other words, one would have to follow the bread crumbs and forget who they are to wind up at the conclusion that animals became men. The evidence is textbook, but not real. There are no animals becoming men. There are no men that were animals. There are only men who were always men. You and I are men who came from men, who came from men, all throughout the course of humankind. And never did any say, even thousands of years ago, you know I remember when we were animals, and it is so great being men and not animals anymore. There is nothing but modern proclamations of what they reckon must have been, but without really knowing.
     
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  8. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Yes, in complex animals like humans, evolution takes a lot longer than human memory to make significant change.

    We don't remember when humans didn't have blue eyes, for example. We don't remember when adults couldn't digest milk after childhood - an evolutionary feature that might have arrived while humans created cattle by man providing selection rather than leaving it to natural selection.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2023
  9. JET3534

    JET3534 Well-Known Member

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    DNA is real. DNA sequencing is real. Fossils are real. I have to ask, no insult intended. Have you ever taken a science class that covered the science of evolution that you say is "wonky."
     
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  10. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    DNA isn't animals evolving into men. And fossils are the remnants of dead things in rocks, not animals evolving into men. No, I've never taken a science class beyond high school. Or a religion class at any time. But I know from Gods spirit that God lives. And I've always known that the theory of evolution is insulting to the light, spirit, conscience, and intellect in me. That's not to say I'm special. Clearly I'm not. But come on man...monkeys?! I'm slow, but that's not much of a pitch. Evolution has always struck me as an absurdity. And Atheism is just a state of mind and a dearth of spirit. Short of indoctrination, I don't see how anyone can take Atheism and the evolution of man seriously. What makes sense is creation, salvation, and accountability to a perfect Father. This is human. And this is the DNA of mankind. It isn't odd than man can become perfect thru following the gospel of Jesus Christ. What is odd is saying that animals evolved to become man by following natural selection. Such a mentality completely severs us from any obligation to higher matters which we are born with. So if ever there were the doctrines of Satan, this would be it.....that there is no God and we are just animals. sheesh Animals are animals, and humans are humans. Look around and what do you see, humans and animals. Evolution and Atheism is a brain wash, a fantasy world designed to hide and separate us from the truth. I may be slow. But it is better to know little and fool no one, than to know wrongly and lead people astray. The eternal welfare of our souls is a pretty big deal. And to mock such a basic personal thing is foolish because it is to say that people don't matter. I think they do.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2023
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  11. JET3534

    JET3534 Well-Known Member

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    Chimps and humans share a common ancestor. If you care to invest 12 minutes here is some pretty clear evidence for this explained.
     
  12. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    You should learn how evolution works in order to make your arguments more sound. It doesn't help you when you suggest evolution means something that it doesn't mean. That leads the conversation toward describing evolution.

    Also, I see no way to argue that evolution would sever us from religion, philosophy, responsibility to each other, or any other such thing. I'd point out that other animals feel a level of responsibility to other life forms in times of emergency or threat, not necessarily to their own kind - just not in such a fabulous way available to humans. Humans have brains that are designed in the same general manner as other animal's brains, but with greater complexity.

    The majority of Christians don't find a conflict between their religion and evolution. Have you thought about how that could be?

    Nothing in science specifies a role for the involvement of a god. But, that isn't atheism. That is the fact that science doesn't have a means of addressing issues of god. Mankind can't test for god doing something. Christianity is well represented in the population of scientists.

    I'm not even slightly interested in mocking any religion. First of all, the very idea that anyone, me in particular, could change someone's religious beliefs by some posts is just plain ludicrous! Plus, nobody can find areas of agreement by mocking. (Don't let me get away with this crap, as I think it is self defeating.)

    I do believe we are all better off as we learn more about how this universe works.
     
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  13. Dirty Rotten Imbecile

    Dirty Rotten Imbecile Well-Known Member

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    While it doesn’t lead me to believe in the Abrahamic god, evolution does cause me to consider if the universe itself (reality) to be somewhat conscious.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2023
  14. JET3534

    JET3534 Well-Known Member

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    Left out the link I intended to post which is this.
     
  15. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And it shows -- but this need not be an impediment to understanding - logic and rational thought.

    A Man is an Animal -- so clearly at least one animal evolved into a Man - this is the logic part I was telling you about .. If a Man is an Animal then at least one animal is a Man :)

    Nor does evolution occur in Rocks ..or any other inanimate material .. hence the terms animate-inanimate -- only the animate side evolves.

    Let us leave the Science class and move into the Religion class. Nothing in the Genesis creation story precludes evolution as an operating force by which man came to be .. especially if one knows the whole story of Genesis .. which fortunately comes which the "religion class" that you are about to attend.

    Did God not tell you about how Man at one of your Tea Parties ?
     
  16. JET3534

    JET3534 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. There are many examples in the Bible but the following always comes to mind. What could be more cruel than this "test?" I guess the willingness to kill one's only child demonstrates the family values many religious claim to promote.

    Then God said, “Take your son to the land of Moriah and kill your son there as a sacrifice for me. This must be Isaac, your only son, the one you love. Use him as a burnt offering on one of the mountains there. I will tell you which mountain.”
     
  17. Dirty Rotten Imbecile

    Dirty Rotten Imbecile Well-Known Member

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    Killing innocent people is ok if god tells you to do it.
     
  18. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Thats just silly .. Of course killing folks is OK if God tells you to --- so long as you can Prove which God told you to do it .. so that the other Gods can punish that God - instead of you for the evil crime. "So it is Written - So it Shall be done" to someone :)
     
  19. Nwolfe35

    Nwolfe35 Well-Known Member

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    Actually the evidence that leads to the conclusion of atheism says that people matter far more than religion does. THIS is our only life, this is our ONE SHOT. There is no evidence for a life beyond this one. In this life we need to do what we can to reduce suffering because the people here and now are far more important than some imaginary afterlife. For religion (and Christianity in particular) you are taught the suffering here is temporary. That if it's "God's Will" that someone should suffer then we should not question it. "God's Perfect Plan" results in a 4 year old getting cancer? Well "God Works in Mysterious Ways". Children in a school in Nashville are killed by someone on a gun toting rampage? Offer "thoughts and prayers" instead of actually DOING something. Someone is grieving because of the death of a loved one? Tell them that their loved one "Is in a better place" and that "You'll be reunited in heaven one day" instead of actually trying to console them.
     
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  20. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    To me, it just means that we're supposed to love God the most. That's how we know to love others perfectly or even at all. God made an example of Abraham for mans benefit, that we might be reminded of the proper order of things. It doesn't mean that to love God you must kill your children. It means that to love God the most, then you will know how to properly love and train your children, even to eternal life. Abraham was a great man.
     
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  21. JET3534

    JET3534 Well-Known Member

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    Well of course it is a story and never happened. But the message that one should kill their child when they hear a voice in their head is what scares me about religion. People will do anything or kill anyone at the direction of an invisible man. That is not a virtue.

    They don't even have to hear the voice. Rather just be directed to kill by someone claiming to be a prophet. Even attack a wagon train of innocent people, i.e., Mountain Meadows Massacre which involved your people.

    https://www.history.com/this-day-in...utes-murder-120-emigrants-at-mountain-meadows

    Following a man of God:

    [​IMG]




    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2023
  22. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That is a rather dull and lonely perspective of Atheism - just because there is no God (making sure one has defined what that word is referring to) doesn't mean there is no evidence for life beyond this one.. We can no more make that claim than the "There is a God/ There is not a God" claim. We simply don't know .. and in fact the one and only thing that we do know for sure .. is that we are here .. "I AM" .. as in "I Drink Therefore I AM" ..

    and if this is all there is .. what is the point of reducing suffering .. that person or animal suffering is going to blink out of existence soon .. no memories of the suffering will remain .. nothing . the end .. don't think this point is clear at all.

    So ... I don't know what this God thing is -- you are talking about .. and 99.9% of the time this word is used .. the person using it doesn't know either .. has not defined what they are talking about as God .. but both parties think they are talking about the same thing .. although we know for a fact that everyone's conception of God is going to be at least slightly different .. never mind how one achieves favors from this God . such as "Eternal Live" -- "Salvation" "A Free pass through Punishment" nor do they know which God they are Talking about 99.99% of the time .. be it Christian or Muslim .. the Jew would have a higher percentage.

    Now as to the "Evidence" -- YOU - are the evidence .. the fact that matter and energy managed to get together in some configuration - that realized its own existence ... that opened its eyes one day and said "I AM"

    Which means there was a finite probability for this event to happen .. which means that "IF" Time is infinite -- all finite probabilities will repeat - an infinite number of times .. "THUS" - existence of the "I AM" is as infinite as Time.

    How is that for a spanky whooo into the Mix :)
     
  23. Dirty Rotten Imbecile

    Dirty Rotten Imbecile Well-Known Member

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    Maybe this is how monotheism was born
    4000 years ago in the Middle East:

    Idiota: My god said I could kill you.
    Stupidio: Oh yeah well my god said he would kill your god if you kill me
    Idiota: Well my god is bigger than your god
    Stupidio: Well my God spells his name with a capital letter.
    Idiota: Well my God has capitalized pronouns too because He is powerful
    Stupidio: Oh yeah? Well my God is the God of Gods and King of Kings!
    Idiota: Well my God is the only God! All other gods are fake!
     
  24. Dirty Rotten Imbecile

    Dirty Rotten Imbecile Well-Known Member

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    I recently read the first few chapters of the Bhagavad Gita. The story begins with two enormous armies facing off on a battlefield. The leader of one army is talking to Krishna and tells him, “hey, I don’t want to fight these people. Most of them are family and friends so even if I win this battle I will lose because I will be losing so many people I care about.” It’s like a two chapter speech. Being a bit of a pacifist I’m like “ok, I like this story” But then Krishna is like “Hey don’t worry about it. These guys all have immortal souls and their bodies are just temporary so go ahead and let ‘em have it”

    I mean, I didn’t read the whole thing and I was at a funeral thing so I might have missed something there but that’s what I got out of it. I wonder how it ends?
     
  25. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Like all major religious writings, the Bhagavad Gita is symbolic, an allegory, and loaded with metaphors. The two armies represent your personal wish and desire for enlightenment versus your treasured worldly beliefs, hopes, fears, desires, purposes, intentions, knowledge, expectations, and all claims which you must reduce to zero to realize your goal of enlightenment.

    As you read the Gita you may notice some very interesting parallels to Krishna and Jesus and what they say and advise.
     

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