Plentiful Arctic Ice Sept. 2021

Discussion in 'Environment & Conservation' started by Sunsettommy, Oct 2, 2021.

  1. Sunsettommy

    Sunsettommy Well-Known Member

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    Science Matters

    Plentiful Arctic Ice Sept. 2021

    October 1, 2021

    by Ron Clutz

    Excerpt:

    [​IMG]September daily extents are now fully reported and the 2021 September monthly results can be compared with those of the previous 14 years. MASIE showed 2021 at 5.2M km2 and SII was close behind, reaching 4.9M for the month. Analysis below shows that the 2021 Minimum was 1/2 Wadham ( 1M km2) higher than the 14 year average, and 1¼ Wadhams more than 2007.

    In August, 4.4M km2 was the median estimate for the September monthly average extent from the SIPN (Sea Ice Prediction Network) who use the reports from SII (Sea Ice Index), the NASA team satellite product from passive microwave sensors. The SII actual ice extent was 1/2 Wadham higher.

    LINK
     
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  2. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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    I'm waiting for the press release and headlines.:rock_slayer:
     
  3. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If anyone can find me the stats that compares the year by year global total ice gain vs ice loss, that would be great. I've looked, and neither 'alarmists' nor 'deniers' seem interested in anything but cherrypicking the regions that follow the narrative they want to push. The arctic has more/less ice! No wait, now the antarctic has more/less ice! Greenland is melting! Iceland is frozen! ...meaningless cherrypicking propaganda deliberately ignorant of the big picture all around.
     
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  4. Chrizton

    Chrizton Well-Known Member

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    I think the arctic numbers are heavily influenced by the strength and location of the polar vortex (or I suppose technically vortices) in any given year.
     
  5. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member

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    The econazi crowd don't care, the popular media won't report on it because it doesn't generate fear. Evidently, the climate has responded on its own to all that fear mongering the left has been spewing....
     
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  6. Sunsettommy

    Sunsettommy Well-Known Member

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    The following LINKS to the sea ice and Greenland data:

    Polar Portal (DK)

    MASIE (NOAA)

    SII (NISDC)

    What I posted is based on MASIE and S11 Satellite data for the region, it isn't a "cherrypick" at all, it is what the September data shows.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2021
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  7. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    All regions fluctuate regardless of the timeframe. For any that are up, others are down. What matters is all of them.
     
  8. EMH

    EMH Banned

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    The 2005 Arctic sea ice melt was just over Gakkel ridge, which is actively volcanic.

    The 83F water temp reading was the same lie, measured just over a tectonic vent that released...

    The warmers monitor tectonic events and then dash out to measure "warming" caused by magma.... And then lie their asses off as usual...
     
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  9. Sunsettommy

    Sunsettommy Well-Known Member

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    The chart is for ALL regions combined in the chart as it is composed of measured minimum (average extent) for the year which happens in September every year.

    You need to read the chart better next time.
     
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  10. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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  11. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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    Ice loss in Greenland has not been caused by AGW, but rather by a dynamic highlighted by Svensmark.

    The ‘Hypothesis’ That Longwave (Greenhouse Gas) Forcing Drives Greenland Ice Melt Is Wrong
    By Kenneth Richard on 4. November 2021

    Share this...
    Scientists publishing in GRL once again affirm that in recent decades the dominant mechanism driving surface melt for the Greenland ice sheet has been downwelling shortwave radiation modulated by clearer skies (fewer clouds) and natural wind pattern changes.
    Greenland’s ice melt has not been driven by “longwave heating” from greenhouse gases in the last decades – even though this has been the “prevailing hypothesis” in climate models (Wang et al., 2021).

    “The day-to-day variability of normal-rate melt events is dominated by sensible heat exchange (31%) and shortwave radiation (28%). They are likely caused by katabatic winds, a gravity-driven downslope wind that can be forceful and often associated with clear skies.
    “With katabatic winds occurring during clear skies, they coincide with periods of increased shortwave radiation.”

    [​IMG]

    Image Source: Wang et al., 2021

    . . . .
     
  12. Sunsettommy

    Sunsettommy Well-Known Member

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    Not a lot of people know that

    A Potted History of Glaciers
    NOVEMBER 10, 2021

    Excerpt:

    By Paul Homewood

    A friend recently suggested that “melting glaciers” must surely prove “global warming is true”.

    It is a common belief. After all, glaciers are a visible phenomenon and it all sounds logical.

    As you know, I have written extensively about glaciers, (see the “glaciers” tab on the sidebar). But it is worth posting this potted history of them:


    Middle Ages

    [​IMG]

    https://web.archive.org/web/2016031...09-13/ancient-trees-emerge-frozen-forest-tomb

    As glaciers recede in Alaska, scientists are finding the remains of forests previously buried by the ice.

    Above is an example at the Mendenhall Glacier, where carbon dating reveals the trees are between 1200 and 1400 years old. Other older trees have also been found.

    LINK
     
  13. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    So….. a blog
    By David Stockman - let’s see who he is and whether he is worth listening to
    Can’t find any info on him but his favourite author is this guy
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Stockman
    Hmmmm no climate science degree that I can see

    Where did they get the data?

    Seems a site called MAZIE

    And here is a summation of how accurate THAT database is

    https://neven1.typepad.com/blog/2016/01/a-difference-in-nonsense.html
     
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  14. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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    Apparently the author of your link does not know that NSIDC is part of NOAA.

    ". . . The organization that we today call NSIDC began in 1976, when the USGS transferred responsibility for the WDC to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Association (NOAA) Data and Information Service, and the center moved to the University of Colorado in Boulder under the direction of Professor Roger G. Barry. In 1982, NOAA created the National Snow and Ice Data Center (NSIDC) as a means to expand the WDC holdings and as a place to archive data from some NOAA programs. In the 1980s and 1990s, support to NSIDC widened with NASA funding for the National Snow and Ice Data Center Distributed Active Archive Center (DAAC) and National Science Foundation (NSF) funding to manage selected Arctic and Antarctic data and metadata. . . ."
    National Snow and Ice Data Center (NSIDC)
    https://nsidc.org


    Arctic sea ice has likely reached its minimum extent for the year, at 4.72 million square kilometers (1.82 million square miles) on September 16, 2021, ...

    MASIE Home | National Snow and Ice Data Center
    https://nsidc.org › data › masie


    Where is Arctic sea ice NOW? ... To give you the best available Arctic-wide answer to the above question, the MASIE (may-zee) product is produced in cooperation ...
    Time Series Plots
    Below are time series plots comparing sea ice extent over ...
     
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  15. Sunsettommy

    Sunsettommy Well-Known Member

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    He was too busy to whine about a "blog" to notice that SII is from NOAA, MASIE is from NSIDC (NOAA)

    The poor fella failed to notice this despite that it is right there in my post in the open:

    and this from NSIDC:

    FAQs
    1. What is the difference between this product and the Sea Ice Index? The Sea Ice Index has a daily view, too.
    The Sea Ice Index (SII) relies on satellite passive microwave data as its only data source. These data are automatically processed using an algorithm and have known biases and limitations; these are covered in the SII documentation. MASIE relies on data from the Interactive Multisensor Snow and Ice Mapping System (IMS) that runs at the U.S. National Ice Center (USNIC). The IMS product uses several satellite data sources including passive microwave, but it is also based on visual analysis and other data sources and undergoes a form of manual data fusion. Another difference is in the resolution of the products. The MASIE product has a nominal 4-km resolution which is higher than the nominal 25-km resolution of the SII.

    LINK

    red bolding mine

    Ignorance can hurt people and their credibility.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2021
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  16. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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    After you punch through the shell of their insults and procedural arguments, their substantive claims are usually easily refuted.
     
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  17. Sunsettommy

    Sunsettommy Well-Known Member

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    They do that because they can't counter the information itself, thus play the authority and source fallacies game with a dash of consensus claims all part and parcel of pseudoscience thinking.
     
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  18. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member

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    Same thing they've done in Iceland....
     
  19. EMH

    EMH Banned

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    Yup another magma flow, another left wing liar on NPR whining about glaciers melting...
     
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  20. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    So, you cite precisely a blog to try to impeach MASIE (not MAZIE), an indisputably honest and credible research project of NSIDC/NOAA. And find no irony in such self-humiliation.

    Remarkable.
     
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  21. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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  22. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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    There is nothing at all unprecedented about modern Arctic sea ice extent.
    New Study: There Was Less Arctic Sea Ice In The 1700s-1800s Than From 2002-2006
    By Kenneth Richard on 15. November 2021

    Share this...
    Paleoclimate data indicate there was less Arctic sea ice during the pre-industrial period than in modern times, or when CO2 concentrations were 100 ppm lower than today (280 vs. 380 ppm).
    Scientists (Diamond et al., 2021) assert that during the 18th and 19th centuries Arctic sea ice extent minimum (September) values averaged 5.54 million km².

    Though modern sea ice losses are often characterized as dangerously low, satellite data indicate the 2002-’06 five-year average minimum sea ice extent was 5.92 million km², which is 0.38 km² above the 1700s and 1800s or pre-industrial (PI) levels. This would not appear to be consistent with claims of unprecedented sea ice losses in recent decades. . . .
     
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  23. Jack Hays

    Jack Hays Well-Known Member Donor

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  24. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    That's the problem with claiming a cyclical decline is a secular trend: eventually the cycle is absolutely certain to prove you hilariously wrong.
     
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  25. EMH

    EMH Banned

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    Good grief...

    Data from glacier is called ice cores, layers of annual accumulation.

    A (continent specific) ice age like Greenland prints a new layer of "ice core" every year. The warmers define that as "melting."

    Lol

    Remember that the Arctic Ocean is growing, has been for tens of millions of years. All of the hype of 2005 and 2007 was about sea ice melt just over Gakkel ridge. No other part of the Arctic sea ice was out of standard parameters. All of the sea ice over just Gakkel ridge melted. "Global" warming they claimed. As they hid the truth of the

    Search for

    Arctic undersea volcanoes


    Which apparently did not go off recently...


    The tectonic direction of Greenland is the biggest variable for the near future of climate change. Greenland froze because Greenland moved NW while Europe moved SW due to the angle of the fault at the bottom center of the Atlantic which surfaces only on Iceland. Recent dats suggested Arctic Ocean growth was "overpowering" Atlantic growth, pushing Greenland WSW. If the Arctic sea ice melt went quiet, then perhaps the Arctic isn't growing as fast right now, and hence Greenland "melting" will have to wait until greenland is pushed further away from the North Pole...
     
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