Practical Firearms Discussion: The single stack 9's

There is very little that is hotter in the gun market today than the single stack 9mm's. In a world awash with unhinged liberals threatening violence upon civilization these firearms offer a lot, matching adequate firepower, concealabilty as well as comfort in carry. The old maxim that small guns don't have reliability no longer holds true with most of the weapons out there.
IMHO, the original players in the single stack trend were the S&W 3913 and the Sig 239. I've personally carried the old 3913 for years, but its age is showing and there are simply better weapons out there. It was and is totally reliable, something that Smith got right. However, it was heavier than it needed to be and most had the atrocious DA/SA operation with a safety/decocker. It did make it OK to pocket carry if you had to, but its extra weight sometimes made that problematic. The grip was less than optimal but made much better with after market add on products. The worst thing was that God awful S&W trigger. You had to train with the thing often. The Sig was/is an excellent pistol and was the choice of many professional bodyguards. However it was as large if not larger than a Glock 19 and was heavier, providing only 8+1 rounds instead of the 15+1 of the G's. Sig gave it a 10 round mag that only made the weapon higher and less able to conceal. The Sig also had DA/SA operation with only a decocker, but the trigger wasn't that much better. The substitution of the DAK trigger didn't improve things. The Sig was also expensive.
Today I'm going to take out a brand new Walther PPS M2 LE model and put it through its paces. This is one of the new generation single stack 9's with polymer frames and striker fired operation that really improves the concept of this genre of handguns.
Your input on this class of pistols awaits.

 

My first owned gun was a single stack 9x19 by Smith & Wesson -- the model 59:

 

My current duty pistol is a double stack 45ACP however:

 

The most important thing is that the gun must fit your hands.

My hands have gotten bigger.

As you get older you still keep growing.

Your head, ears, nose, hands, and feet always keep growing.

 

Feel free to copy and use either of my photos above as your new avatar to go with your moniker @QLB . You still need to get an avatar to go with your moniker.

 

Actually, the single stack was the model 39. The 59 was the 15 rd. doublestack version.

 

This was interesting to me, especially your talk of the trigger on your 3913.

I've used Smiths a lot over the years and I have a small collection of them. My experience with the 3913 was very VERY different. Yes, it was just as reliable as you describe, but I found it (at least my particular example of it) to have one of the BEST, not the worst, DA/SA triggers I've ever tried. The DA was butter smooth (if long) but the trigger reset between that first DA shot and the next SA shot was shorter and more crisp than even on expensive tuned 1911's. I could run that gun faster than just about any other firearm I've owned; except for my 2nd Gen. 469. Sadly, it was one I chose to let go of during a financial crisis a few years ago; but I kept the 469!

 

We will disagree. The DA on the 3913 is just a bit too long and the trigger reset has perhaps the longest I've used. It's really hard to feel the reset. You also can't prep the DA like you can with a Beretta. It's OK once you get used to it, but it takes practice. I improved the weapon by adding a Pachmayr rubber grip sleeve and replacing the original Novak sights with Trijicon's.
I still haven't found anything to replace my trusty old 3913, at least just yet in the single stack 9mm category. The little Glock 43 was just a bit too small, a bit too light and with diminished capacity. The after market mags and extensions are reportedly having issues with reliability. In addition the stock trigger is just a bit too gritty for my tastes. An Apex replacement is a thought. Zev reportedly has a drop in trigger, but with a CCW, it's probably not that safe.
Here's my review of the Walther PPS M2 LE.
This is the good. The weight is about perfect at around 21 oz and it comes with 3 different mags of 6,7 and 8 rounds respectively. This version comes with phosphoric sights that are easy to pick up. Ergonomics are excellent and grip panels give adequate purchase for a concealed carry weapon. It was also totally reliable with about 150 rounds of Winchester white box 115's and Federal Aluminum cased 115's. The really good was that the trigger was about the best of the genre with virtually no creep and extremely short trigger reset that is very easy to feel. Recoil is a bit snappy, but not unexpected in a pistol that size and weight. It's also very and I mean very accurate with one caveat that I will list below.
Here's the bad. While very accurate, the pistol shot low and to the left. I had the range master give it a go. He was also a competitive shooter and had the same thing happen to him. I had to drift the sights which helped but did not totally correct the problem. This is a European pistol and instead of being sighted in at the 6 o'clock position it shot to point of aim, and maybe a bit lower. The front sight looks like a number 4 and replacement with a number 3 would solve the problem, however I've already paid for night sights. THAT doesn't make me especially happy.
Here is the ugly. The magazine release is mounted high on the frame and can be released accidentally dropping the mag. That happened 3 times. I knew about this before hand and the problem is real. Walther has also recently admitted a problem with weak magazine release springs and will send a replacement, however they're on backorder.
I think the fix is this. I may very likely put a #3 front sight on as a replacement. I'll replace the original mag release spring with a Wolf spring. I'll also add a Talon wrap around grip that will increase purchase and protect the magazine release a bit. That will probably help the leftward drift a bit, something that I've heard is a common problem. The grip while having adequate surface area is really quite slim hence the S in the PPS and trigger control might not be as forgiving as on larger pistols. Even Glock's have the so called "shooting left" problem if finger placement is not perfect on their stock triggers. In short, the pistol shows promise, but unfortunately will need work before it can replace the S&W with confidence.

 

I’ve carried a Kahr CW-9 for almost 10 years. The only mod is a Hogue Handall Jr slip on grip. I am thinking about retiring Carrie and getting the new CW-9 carbon fiber and add tritium sights. The DAO trigger is a little long, but smooth and predictable. The gun weighs less than a lb, is .9” wide, and is stainless for corrosion resistance. 7+1 capacity.

 

The Kahr's are great little weapons. I had a few concerns regarding them. The C series is in the process of being replaced by the "improved" S series and in this case the improved moniker is probably correct. The S-9 is the replacement for the CW-9 and I don't want to get caught between an older model that might not be supported well and and newer "unproven" model. The problem with the S-9 is the same as the Glock, including the long trigger pull you mentioned. It's really a bit light and a bit small, at least for me in the 9mm. It's bigger brother the ST-9 has an 8+1 capacity, however, it's overall height is more than a Glock 19 with a lot less capacity. It is THIN to be sure, however I kept wondering about the grip surface area and how that would affect trigger control and accuracy beyond bad breath distances. However, it does have a 4 inch barrel and the weight is about right at the 20 oz mark. With the overall height however concealabity becomes a problem. Justin Moon's company is nothing if not innovative and receptive. It could be THE ONE that might be as close to perfect as you can get right out the box.

 

Interesting discussion. I have carried a Kahr PM9 for a great many years without a hiccup from that gun until the Sig P365 came along. Not a whole lot larger than my beloved Kahr, but 10+1 capability and 12+1 with the extended mag. I now have a couple thousand rounds downrange and it is a keeper. I shoot both strong and weak hand and find it will get the job done out to 75' without a lot of effort on my part.
Yes, my PM9 is just that much smaller thus allowing it to qualify it for being a true dress pants pocket gun, so it will remain in rotation, but if I have my family with me, the Sig wins every time.

 

Thank you.

 

Is the difference in frame thicknesses and overall dimensions between a semi-automatic handgun that utilizes a single-stack magazine, and a double-stack magazine, truly so significant as to warrant the continued production of the single-stack variety?

 

Single stack 9's are the same width as the double stack Sig. P365 all running just about exactly one inch.

 

I would venture to say that single stack 9's are the current biggest product in the handgun market today. The S&W Shield is the biggest seller. With unhinged liberals committing and threatening assaults, this trend is likely to continue.
The single stack's really are a response to the concealed carry market and need for weapons that serve this purpose. The reality is that there is no perfect concealed carry weapon. Are they body guard weapons? Probably not. The true double stack 9's like the Glock 26, H&K VSP sk, Walther PPQ sc, S&W compact etc have taken over, rapidly replacing weapons like 6 shot snubs, SIG 239 and chopped and bobbed 1911's, though the latter in 9mm are making a bit of an expensive comeback.
Are they are back up gun? The answer is no, the little 5 shot snubs and subcompact 380's provide this in spades.
They are smallish semi-autos, chambered in an effective cartridge, providing a bit more capacity and firepower than the 5 to 6 shots and 380's. They're also small enough and above all, light enough to be concealed easily and worn comfortably for extended periods. Easy on, easy off is critical, especially when matched to the proper holster. The relative thinness of the slides and and frames makes them easier to conceal. Printing becomes less of a problem.
The downside is that none of them are quite perfect, they're harder to shoot accurately and reliability issues can be a potential problem, though you don't stay in business/production with a bad reputation with this genre.

 

I'm actually curious if your pistol doesn't have an out-of-spec trigger. With literally every 2nd and 3rd generation S&W I've ever fired (and I've owned a number of them over the years) the trigger reset is instantaneous, the slightest movement of the trigger finger enough to reset it for a followup shot. I agree that the DA pull is long, but I have NEVER had a S&W of that generation demonstrate the reset issue you describe.

 

Wrong weapon. The single stack was the model 39. The double stack the model 59. (My Uncle had a model 39 back in the 1980s. I wasn't a big fan of it. It jammed much more than my Walther P1 (alloy newer version of the P3 with the same capacity).

 

Nope, I have two Gen 3 S&W's including a 4006. The 40 is better but trigger reset on a hammer fired DA/SA can't ever really compete with a striker fired. S&W "upgraded" the 3913 series with its Lady Smith and TSW versions which may have improved the triggers. Mine is an early model. Smith has never had a reputation of making especially good triggers probably because of their LEO sales. IMHO trigger reset on Beretta is the best. Sig and surprisingly Ruger would be second. H&K a very close third with S&W clearly in 4th.
The 3913 was introduced before the single stack 9 craze and was primarily driven as a backup or off duty gun to LEO. Civilian sales were secondary till they decided that women were next big market. The trigger issues are part and parcel to its doctrine at the time and business model.
Still, my 3913 is my single stack of choice, till I find something better. If I can't fix the Walther, I'm going to strongly consider the Honor Defense.

 

How many of such firearms are currently in production, and for sale in the united states?

 

The Walther is 0.9. Like I said before the Sig 365 has set the single stack market on its head. Sig needs to bring the price point down a bit in the process to compete with Glock and above all S&W. Glock, S&W and the other manufacturers will be forced to bring out extended mags in the process.
Here's my further review of the Walther PPS M2 LE
My relationship with the weapon improved today, again running with flawless reliability digesting everything. It's a better pistol out of the holster than as a target gun. The Von Stavenhagen sight arrangement works very well used as a flash sight picture, something that surprised me. There were no accidental mag ejections this time but you really have to be very careful with your grip using this small pistol. The trigger was again just outstanding.
Here's the bad. It has at times a tendency to still shoot left and low unless trigger control was absolutely perfect. It's not forgiving. Also had a discussion with a rep at Wolf Springs who stated that they makes no springs for the weapon including the magazine ejection spring.
The worst thing was my conversation with Walther customer service. They were arrogant and condescending and did not admit there was a problem. They didn't offer to fix it or even take a note about inadvertent magazine release. Dismal service. He did tell me I could buy another front sight but didn't give specifics of the where.
Will I keep this weapon? I don't know. The trigger and ergonomics, as well as reliability work well for me. However the magazine release problem and the need to possibly replace the sights is of significant concern. I will probably get a Talon wrap around grip that will help protect the magazine release a bit. Will it replace my S&W 3913 immediately. Not a chance. Would I recommend this weapon. Certainly not now.

 

Having seen your posts for some time now, I figure you have doe a considerable amount of shooting, so I am not trying to advise from the perspective of trying to be a smart a**. If you are a southpaw, disregard my comments. I have taught/worked with a lot of folks with shooting accuracy. Even experts can develop problem habits (If I shoot a lot of large bore pistols now and then I can develop a flinch requiring me to go back to the basics). I don’t know if you have checked yourself on this, but one thing I have noticed (for right hand shooters, flipped for left handlers) is when switching to shooting smaller frame guns, particularly if they have larger hands, is shooting groups down to the left. I have seen this several times, usually when a shooter has large hands and transitions to a smaller grip. This can sometimes be the result of squeezing the hand too hard, sometimes from an unconscious action to better control retention (particularly when all fingers are not in contact with the grip) or to, strangely enough, for better trigger control. With the rising interest in small 380’s, 9’s, and many of those DA only I have seen it more frequently. It happened to me with a NAA Pug I use sometimes when cycling until I made my own compensating grips for it, even then I wasn’t completely to solve the problem of the muzzle rize on a shot, shooting 4” high at 10’, but now can predict where it will hit at normal SD ranges.
While it’s hard to gauge during normal shooting, it can be tested by the same means used to determine if you are looking to see if you have developed a flinch. Removing a flinch with a gun that fits you is much easier though. It’s not as easy to fix the issue if the gun doesn’t fit your hand as well and the fix could muck up your trigger mechanics with other guns you are used to shooting. That platform may not be a good fit for you, but better for someone like me that has smaller hands. For me, getting the right size grip is essential to my performance and I may have to sacrifice felt recoil to do that.
When buying a gun, the first two considerations for me is if I can bring a gun up naturally to target with minimal sight adjustment, then does the fit allow me to pull through the sear smoothly and result in maintaining sight picture on the follow through. Some slight problems, depending on the platform I can fix, some I can’t. I find some guns right hand biased (not talking about being ambidextrous or not but being a built in bias), something I can feel and see when dryfiring a gun.
I would be curious if you run your own testing and determine if you think it’s the gun or it’s fit to you.

 

I'm right handed and shooting isn't much beyond my back door. I will go to an indoor range at times of which I have a membership and they possess a MILO. It also has AC and it gets very hot here very early.
I'm big and have a large hand ( wear a size 9 glove ) and there are really weapons that are perhaps a bit too small. Yesterday I ran a Glock 26 with a 12 round extended mag side by side with the Walther. The little G was just about perfect, almost as good as the G 19. The perfect single stack 9 just may not be in the cards because of my hand size and the relatively narrow grips of the single stacks. I've compared the the S&W 2.0 and dimensionally; it's smaller but has about the same weight. IMHO the perfect single stack 9 should carry about 20 oz for recoil and not beyond 24 oz because of weight with 21 to 22 about perfect.
I like Glocks and often carry them. Once you get used to the grip angles the things will rock. The G26 is just a bit thick to easily conceal, but it may just have to do. I've on occasion have had the "Glock shoots left" problem, that IS from trigger control and getting sloppy, but usually only happens with a lots of down time, where I won't shoot for a while. The perfect concealed carry gun for me might just have to be a double stack under the subcompact heading with G 26 already proven. The H&K, as well as the S&W is in the running as is the CZ, but there have reports of the latter having its own set of problems. Walther also has a double stack compact, but I"m not sure if I'll buy Walther again because of their dismal customer service.

 

I put a Hogue slip on grip on my Kahr CW9. I can barely get 3 fingers on the grip, it’s wider and more tacky, but the slide is still .9” wide inside my belt. I love the Hogue.

 

Thanks for your many thorough & informative Posts.
Although it doesn't qualify as a "carry gun", my first "single stack 9mm" was a 1923 German Luger I was given for my 15th birthday which was stolen in the 1980s, used by a criminal in a shoot-out with the police, recovered & returned to me about 6 months after it was stolen, undamaged.
My "carry guns" have ranged from a Walther P-38, 1911 .45acp, .44 Charter Arms Bulldog, etc. to, more recently, a Glock Mod. 26 with a 15 rd. mag. & sometimes an HK45.
My question is, why not carry the largest concealable firearm you can get away with?
I, too am over 6' tall, about 230 lbs & can carry a wide variety of firearms, concealed, but find myself more frequently just carrying the Glock Mod. 26 with the 15 rd. mag. simply because it's less weight & trouble.
Since I live in a rural area & deer - auto collisions are frequent, I'll also bring a .45acp 1911 for putting a wounded deer out of its misery.
Maybe I've answered my own question but am interested in your input.