Refuting the Standard Arguments Against Communism and for Capitalism

Yep. That's what I wrote. And you still don't get it.

 

Don't tell me what I get or don't get. Provide reasoning.

I replied to part of your response to the poster. It's fact: the Constitution doesn't indicate that it favors capitalism and communism isn't contrary to our Constitutional rights, -not that I approve of the USSR's or China's or any communist's methods/program/agenda in any sense, I don't. But it isn't contrary to our Constitutional rights either.

 

You're getting warmer. The methods necessary to implement communism are contrary to our rights, e.g. central planning.

 

Hmm, so you're quite the firm believer in the U.S. Constitution, well, rather than repeat myself I'll merely refer you to this, http://www.politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=478748&p=1066713128#post1066713128

 

You deligitimate this hackneyed argument by bringing it to bear only against communism, when everywhere we behold capitalist societies coming starkly face to face with their grievous unsustainability. That is, your one-sidedness reduces your argument to mere sophistry. And, once again, the putatively failed communist systems that you have in mind were certainly not the authentic article. And no modern society has gone authentically communist yet quite simply because the capitalist world-system and the plutocratic powers that be have used their massive resources (ranging from their massive economic power to puppet governments all over the globe, to the American military and CIA [the dirty tricks specialists], etc.) to prevent the spread of genuine Marxist enlightenment, and the rise of real-deal communist societies. Therefore the empirical fact that the communist vision of a better form of life hasn't been actualized yet isn't at all something that can be used to fairly discredit communism. But, of course, knee-jerk anti-communists such as yourself will predictably continue to employ the same trite and sophistical arguments. Oh well.

 

Politics is not my strong point so I was simply asking which commie countries have failed or succeeded.
For example I know Russia failed, what happened there?

 

Quite a lot, a good deal of which can not be laid at the doorstep of the philosophy of communism.

 

Well isn't that convenient! No one is interested in implementing communism!!

 

Russia (USSR) was never communist. The country was seized by capitalist and anti-communist forces before communism was able to break out.

 

Please list a pure socialist/communist country that didn't tail spin.

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Evidence?

 

One of the core problems with capitalism is that it assumes growth infinitely into the future. It is such a new economic model that it has no room for the inevitable collapse of any model that demands growth purely motivated by personal self-interest. We saw some of this with the massive extinction events of the 1800's. Personal self interest almost wiped the bison off the map as it did completely the carrier pigeon. We have seen fish depleting industries decimate cod fisheries, salmon fisheries, even tuna are now endangered. On a human scale, how exactly is capitalism going to save us from consumerism and a demand based economy? Say every person the planet became as consumptive as a typical American. There are not enough goods and resources on the planet for this to occur. Imagine the waste produced by such affluence across 8 billion people.

Another flaw in capitalism is that it is predicated upon competition but every market ends up becoming dominated by fewer and fewer companies over time. The markets tend towards monopolies sooner or later. Once a market is mature and a defacto monopoly exists, competition ceases.

 

One of the first things Hamilton did was to pass a law on manufactures. While not exactly central planning it was certainly not open capitalism free of the power of the state.

 

No one is going to give you a 10-page history lesson here that you wouldn't read anyway. Learn the history because I assure you, you don't know it.

Things to look for and learn about:
Communism is a stateless society after the socialist state "withers away" over many, many years, but you must have a socialist state first, in that case.
Russia is mainly capitalist today, proving that communism was never achieved because 1) not enough time has passed under socialism, and 2) a stable, settled, functioning socialist state never was fully established.

 

Is that supposed to change my mind or shame me?

 

What law? I'm talking about setting prices, inventories, distributions and wages. Hamilton never advocated for that.

 

He most certainly controlled prices, inventories, wages and the like by instituting a buy America policy, having tariffs and making sure American companies got preferential treatment over any and all foreign competition. That sounds like central control to me.

 

That is not the same as central planning.

 

Very good points. Yes, there are reasons aplenty why capitalism isn't a truly, eminently a workable system. And the adherents of capitalist orthodoxy have the ridiculous nerve to claim to be realists!

 

Well, then let me nutshell my thesis in Tarzanese. Capitalism bad for workers and the 99%, good for capitalist bosses and the 1%. Communism bad for the class of capitalist exploiters, good for the rest of us.

 

It's arguably worse than that! Capitalism proclaims competition as one of its major and most effective characteristics, and the cause, itself, for its efficiency. It produces the highest quality goods at the lowest price according to those lacking critical thinking. Yet this is one of capitalism's inescapable internal contradictions that ultimately tear it apart. You see, in the real world a business no sooner opens its doors than it seeks to eliminate, stop, and crush all its competition.

 

Yes, I can see that his vocabulary and capable expression would be quite a challenge for some.

 

Well okay. You need a society that is not authoritarian first in order to have a functioning communist society. It didn't work in a lot of places, and it certainly won't work anywhere that I am aware of, so I guess it's all just academic. Maybe in some star trekian future it might happen naturally, but I guess that's not going to be in our lifetimes.

Or maybe it will, but it will have to occur naturally. No more Stalins or Maos or Castros. No more forced central planning or forced re-education of the politically illiterate. We've learned that much.

That's why I said you have a tough row to hoe. I doubt it will ever work beyond the family unit.

What I think doesn't matter. I'm quite bigoted on the subject that's not going to change. I'm just giving you a prediction of what will happen the next time it's tried.

It's deductive reasoning, rather than pure logic. There's a barrel labeled "Apples" and every time somebody reaches in for an apple, they bring out a banana. First time, second time, third time, fourth time are all bananas.

This doesn't mean that there aren't apples in that barrel, but it does mean that if I want an apple, I'm personally not going to bother reaching into that barrel to find it no matter what it says on the label.

You're welcome to try reaching into that barrel again, if you want. Just realize that you'll have to pay for that fruit whether it's an apple or a banana.

That goes for everybody, and not just communists. Christians, capitalists, and Belch supporters are all going to have to pay no matter what comes out of that barrel.

It's working out okay for me. It could be a hell of a lot better if I could figure out how to keep the tax man from dipping his greedy little fingers into my wallet.

Capitalism in its true form is the free market and respect of private property. All transactions and agreements are mutually agreed upon without threat of violence. There is no use of force or violence there. If you want one of my apples, that will cost you a shekel. You are not obligated to buy one, and I am not obligated to give you one. They are my apples.

and that ownership is why you need violence, as well as the root cause for all of those failed and failing attempts.

 

Lessons have been learned. Old failed efforts have been abandoned. We shouldn't even be talking about communism since that isn't going to happen in our lifetime or probably that of our kids or grandkids. The only challenge facing us along these lines is that of establishing socialism. That is what is coming next.

 

Yes, of course I agree that we'll first have to pass through a stage of socialism, but we must always keep the ideal of a communist form of life in view, i.e. we must keep our eyes on the ultimate prize, as it were.

 

Well, we can continue to go back and forth, continue to essentially repeat ourselves in slightly different words each time, but rather than do so I'll simply let you have the last word and refrain from replying. And of course I can do this because I don't think that your reasoning has actually refuted any of the views that I've expressed.