Russia launches full invasion of Ukraine

Discussion in 'Russia & Eastern Europe' started by kazenatsu, Feb 25, 2022.

  1. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The biggest news in Eastern Europe since the collapse of the Soviet Union.

    As of February 24, Russia has launched a near full out invasion of the Ukraine. Not only the break-away Ukrainian provinces of Donetsk and Luhansk, but also the capital of Ukraine itself, Kiev.

    The Russian President, Putin, is using the claim that the Ukrainian government abused the Russian-speaking population in the provinces of Donetsk and Luhansk, which had earlier begun waging a war to break away from Ukraine, seemingly with Russian assistance.

    Many speculate that the Russian President Putin wishes to reunite the country of Ukraine with Russia. Russia might set up a puppet government in Ukraine which it can control. For a long period in history the Ukraine was part of the Russian Empire; even under the Soviet Union the Republic of Ukraine was mostly controlled by Russia.

    Perhaps Putin views this as the best time to strike, since Biden is the President of the US now (which is by far the strongest country leading the NATO alliance). By letting Afghanistan fall to the Taliban, the US recently demonstrated a lack of commitment to protecting foreign areas.
    Putin would probably prefer for Russian to take Ukraine before any possibility of Ukraine being given membership in NATO (which would then oblige the other NATO countries to protect Ukraine, to keep their promise). The escalating conflict between the Ukrainian government and the Russian-speaking Ukrainian break-away provinces was used as the pretext.

    It will be interesting to observe what happens, but it appears Putin not only wants the Russian speaking Ukrainian provinces but all of Ukraine. Perhaps he knows that there is no way to only just take those provinces without Ukraine becoming an enemy to Russia and immediately urgently wanting to join NATO, which the other NATO members might be more likely to do at that point. Or Russia is trying to take control of Ukraine to prevent Ukraine from interfering with Russia's plan for the break-away provinces, which might even become officially separated from the Republic of Ukraine and incorporated into the Russian Federation. Or it could even be possible all the Ukraine will be incorporated into the Russian Federation, like the situation under the Soviet Union.

    To realise the importance of this, let us consider that the Ukraine is not a small a country. Ukraine has a population of 44 million. The United Kingdom of Great Britain, and France, each have populations of 67 million. The combined population of the Netherlands and Belgium has a population of 29 million.
    If Russia were to incorporate Ukraine into its territory, the population of Russia would increase by more than 30 percent.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2022
  2. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    What is so important to Putin about Ukraine?
    Did I hear correctly that it was the most fertile farmland in the entire area?

    I'm sure natural resources factor into it.
     
  3. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Ukraine actually does not have too much natural resources, much less than Russia does. Ukraine does have fertile farmland and has a moderately warmer climate than most of Russia.
     
  4. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    So why risk being blacklisted by most of the world?
     
  5. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There are multiple reasons why Russia may want to control Ukraine

    1. Russia wants to create a barrier to possible invasion, being concerned the territory of Ukraine could be used in the future to launch an attack against Russia.
    2. If asking whether the Ukraine constitutes a "separate nation" (in terms of history, culture, ethnicity, language) from Russia, the answer is somewhere between yes and no. This makes things complicated.
    3. Putin views it as only a mere historical accident that the Ukraine was able to separate from Russia as an independent country. Putin wants the nation of Russia to be great and restore historically lost territory under its control, as during the Russian Empire or Soviet Union.
    4. Russia is concerned about the European Union and NATO becoming too powerful. The incorporation of Ukraine into the European union and NATO would only tip the balance even more. Putin does not wish the position of Russia's adversaries to be strengthened more, since the Ukraine is both a sizable country and is right at Russia's doorstep. Russia prefers to maintain buffer states, a common strategy many powerful countries have historically used to make their own defense easier.
    5. The Russians in Ukraine are more loyal to Russia and less loyal to Ukraine due to language. Putin probably did not wish to lose this advantage in the Russian-speaking provinces in Ukraine, since the Ukrainian government was going to try to greatly reduce the use of the Russian language. It would have been a relatively small loss to Russia, but a loss nonetheless. If fewer people speak Russian, there are fewer "Russians". This has more to do with protecting long-term Russian interests than any immediate benefit to Putin.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2022
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  6. ManYacK

    ManYacK Banned

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    6. This is the fastest way to finally stop war in the Donbass.
     
  7. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think this whole conflict could have been avoided. What Russia mainly wants is to have a hold on military bases on the Crimea peninsula, for submarine naval access. They also do not want Russian-speaking parts of Ukraine to be transformed into Ukrainian speakers, because Russia fears that would cause it to lose future advantage. Right wing Ukrainian factions in Ukraine also got too out of control and provoked Russia. Ukraine still has some resentment against Russia because Stalin intentionally caused a catastrophic starvation in Ukraine, both to punish them and to try to reduce and weaken their population numbers for political advantage, as part of the strategy to make the entire Soviet Union more "Russian" and easier to unify.

    Yet ironically, even though Ukraine had/has a problematic Right Wing faction, overall their government is still more Progressive and Left wing than Russia, also has even more government corruption than Russia, despite having more political freedom and political diversity. This is not an insignificant factor. Since Ukraine leans more Left and Progressive than Russia, there are ideological differences, and Russia fears this could contribute to Ukraine siding with the powerful nations of Western Europe in any conflict.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2022

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