Stakeholders

When the EPA proposes a new regulation, it notifies the ‘stakeholders” of the situation and goes through the motions of give-and-take.

For instance when they proposed the new “Boiler MACT” standards, they had meeting that included government officials – federal, state, and local – environmental groups like the NRDC and Sierra Club, and the “regulated community” (in this case utilities). That’s it.

Notice who is missing? Consumers. In this case ratepayers.

New regulations in no way negatively impact the “regulated community’s” bottom line. They pass the cost on to the consumer. Or the attendant loss of quality.

The EPA and its stakeholders mandated replacement of Freon (R-12) with R-134a as a refrigerant. DuPont made out just fine. They sell R-124a for about $10/lb. Reagan-era Freon cost about $1.50/lb. Even allowing for the difference between the Reagan-buck and the debauched Obama-buck, refrigerant costs more. Worse, R-134a requires 15% more shaft HP per ton of cooling than Freon did, so to get the same amount of cooling more electricity is required to run the compressor motor.

In addition, the change required new compressors and condensers. The equipment manufacturers mad out. They got new captive markets for their products as the old ones were required to cease operation.

And in all this, the consumer got hosed.

It works the same with other regs. Low-flow toilets don’t aggravate regulators, just consumers who have to stand there and do multiple flushed to get the stuff to go down. Zero-phosphate detergents don’t bother regulators or detergent companies. In fact the detergent makers sell A LOT more detergent so people can get their stuff clean.

Always the same story. Regulators get power. Enviro-wackos advance their malevolent agenda. Regulated community gets a new revenue stream, and the consumer pays.

Even foreigners make out in the deal. The loss of Freon meant that foam cannot be effectively lofted by US manufacturers, so foreign competitors of foam products making their foam with (legal in their country) Freon and undercutting US manufacturers.

So why are consumers cut out of the ‘stakeholder’ meetings? Because the regulators know that consumers will rapidly figure out they are getting hosed and will raise Cain.

 

Nobody wants to dispute this?

 

Inept and/or corrupt bureaucrats get a say.
Malevolent enviro-wackos get a say.
Greedy members of the "regulated community" get a say.

But those (numbering in the hundreds of millions) who have to live with these regulations don't get any say at all.

We have to ask our elected officials if they can figure out what's wrong with this picture.

 

I have to admit that your constant cluelessness and massive ignorance are sometimes pretty amusing. Are you that completely ignorant of the fact that the use of freon, a chlorofluorocarbon, was causing the destruction of the ozone layer, or that CHFs are a super powerful greenhouse gas that absorbs infrared energy in otherwise transparent spectral bands? Your anti-environmental myths and stories are so ridiculous. You obviously have no idea what 'environmental protection' is all about or why it is necessary.

Chlorofluorocarbon

Ozone depletion

 

livefree seeks to divert attention from the abuse of consumers by posting some of the pseudo-scientific orthodoxy of the green religion.

Try to stay on-topic, livefree.

 

Your so-called 'topic' is just some more insane anti-environmental, anti-scientific drivel that has no relation to the real world. CFCs like Freon were banned for very good reasons that involve scientific research that seems to be beyond your comprehension. The thinning of the ozone layer due to the action of CFCs in the stratosphere is well documented. Your politically driven denial of reality is very absurd.

 

Still ducking the subject, livefree.

While the veracity of the ozone hole may be debated, there is little debate on the fact that consumers are left out of the environmental rulemaking process.

 

Why are consumers systematically cut out of the conversation?

 

So, any cost is justified?

The electronics industry initiated ROHS, eliminating lead and other toxic substances from electronic manufacture. That evolved to "lead free". Except copper contains a small amount of lead - below ambient levels, and hugely expensive to extract. Is lead free justified?

Kids are suffering more alergic reactions than in the past, because they grew up in a relatively sterile environment. Should we rebalance childhood, or eliminate every allergen?

Meanwhile, the primary problem with water toxicity today is fecal matter. We contaminate all the water used by hooking the toilet up to it.

 

In terms of annual duration, area covered, and ozone concentration, the ozone hole has not changed since 40 CFR 82 was implemented in 1990.

US consumers took a hit ... for no gain at all.

 

Where were the truckers when the EPA was holding "stakeholder" hearings on truck engine regs?

Didn't the truckers have a stake?

 

I've noticed this, taxcutter. It was the same when the Obama admin took control of GM.
The bondholders just totally got screwed. WE, the taxpayers are NEVER considered by the current administration. We're just an ATM machine to Obama. This has to stop.
We can stop it.

 

I got $50 bucks says a Liberal will not chime in all week...LOL


good thread

 

It is self evident...I have posted often that I believe the regulatory system is broken. The folk involved are employed to write regulations. It is what they so...day after day, year after year. They regulate forever. The problem is solved yet the regulation continues. Good regulations are followed by annoying regulations and then by silly regulations and finally to industry crushing regulations...

What is needed is a new umbrella law regulating the regulators and involving actual taxpayers. Perhaps all regulation for a specific new law should be timed out after 5 years with additional regulation requiring new Congressional action.

 

They might actually make sense.

 

Indeed consumers are cut out for having too much commonsense.

You ever met an EPA drone? they come in two flavors: 1)drones who can't get a job anywhere else and 2) ideologues.

 

That is an excellent suggestion. It would force law makers to reconsider the need for regulation rather than let momentum carry out dated, expensive and burdensome regulatory agencies forward regardless of current need.​

 

The issue is not that something had to be done about many environmental problems. The issue is government bureaucrats with zero "real" experience at anything except office politics are the ones that decide what must be done. And these un-elected, un-fireable, career bureaucrats HAVE the ability to make LAWS that require no VOTE by anyone. And have virtually no oversight.

They outlaw Freon that runs in a closed system. Replace it with a new gas that we don't really know WHAT it will do, and allow the continued production of Styrofoam type products.. The production of one ton of Styrofoam requires 685 US gallons of oil, and emits 2,056 tons of greenhouse gases.

ONE TON

It is possible, even likely, that an in depth analysis would find that gains by bureaucrats are more than offset by "unintended consequences."

Its like supporting the 'disadvantaged' in our society. There is nothing wrong with that compassionate Utopian Society idea. What is wrong in the implementation. We presently BORROW about 40% of what the government spends, and the government spends 57% of its total spending on the poor, the sick, and the old. 57% spent on the 'disadvantaged leaves 43% to pay all real government operating expenses. The compassionate idea is good, the present course is unsustainable.

 

The EPA needs to go along with the other hundred or so unconstitutional agencies. Under Ubama it's been a regulatory Tsunami.

 

My plan is strict term limits for Congressmen. 12 years total, 2 Senate terms, or 1 Senate term and 3 House terms. But no more than 12 total. If a person has done 4 terms in the House, he/she CANNOT run for the Senate as that would put him/her over the 12 year limit.

AND

EVERY LAW MUST be passed in Congress. Bureaucrats cannot make any laws or regulations. Whatever they come up with, must go through our Constitutional Legislative process. Passed in both Houses of Congress and signed into law by a president.

 

That's the way it always works. They took CFC out of Asthma inhalers, now they cost 400% more and work 75% less what a bargain. It's just another R-12 like example.

 

Why do you think I have livefree on the ignore list. I suggest this to every conservative.

 

They never mention the Space Shuttle Disaster being caused by a change in the curing of the insulation on the main fuel tank. That's right. They used to use freon to cure the insulation. When the mandate came down they changed how it was done. The insulation fell off of the tank and killed 7 Astronauts. School teacher and all.

 

This admin sees us as ATMs and ATMs should be silent.
We'll speak in November.

 

LOUD & CLEAR!!!