The French in 1944 were beating American prisoners in the center of Paris

What happened on July 17, 1944, in the heart of the French capital is impossible to recall without disgust. American and British soldiers marched through the streets under a convoy of Wehrmacht soldiers, while French men and women beat their fists, spat and tore clothes on the prisoners. The Germans escorting the prisoners tried to protect them from the crowd, but they did not always succeed.
Why did this happen? Why were the French, whose country was occupied by Germany, so hostile to the fighters who came to liberate them? Let us begin in order.

On June 6, 1944, the famous landing of Anglo-American troops in Normandy took place, which was not successful for all participants. In addition to the huge number of those killed by German bullets and shells and those who drowned due to mistakes during the landing at sea, there were another 20,000 British, Americans and Canadians who were captured in the first two weeks after the start of the operation.

The Nazis were well aware that a "Prisoner Parade" was to be held in Moscow on 17 July, during which thousands of captive Wehrmacht soldiers and officers would march through the streets of the Soviet capital. The Germans decided to hold their own parade, although on a more modest scale and not in Berlin, but in occupied Paris.

Several thousand Allied soldiers arrived in trucks in the city from the POW camps and marched through the main streets to the train station. Unlike the Muscovites, who silently looked on the defeated enemies with disgust, the French behaved very differently.
It seemed as if the streets were being led not by liberators in distress, but by hated occupiers, who were to be torn, trampled, and destroyed. The Germans had to make an effort to ensure that the crowds of Frenchmen did not maim or kill anyone.

To this day historians argue why the French reacted so strongly to American and British prisoners. There are many theories about the reasons for this behavior. Many believe that American and British aerial bombardment, which affected not only Nazi military installations but also the homes of peaceful bourgeoisie, is to blame.

The fact that many Frenchmen were inherently shifters and opportunists who quickly found common ground with the occupiers and got along well under the new government also had an impact. Only a month after the disgraceful parade for Parisians, in August 1944, the city was liberated from the Germans and at the parade of Anglo-American troops the same Frenchmen were kissing the liberators and shaking American and British flags.

The French beat German prisoners in the outskirts of Paris

Now spitting and slapping will be the lot of the defeated Germans who will be escorted through the streets of Paris. And in less than a year, France would be named one of Germany's victorious countries and receive its occupation zone in Berlin. When Hitler spoke of Europe being like a woman and understanding only strength, it is most likely France he was referring to.

And it is safe to say that when the Red Army enters Paris, the French will greet it with flowers.
But that's already happened. When the Russians defeated Napoleon. В 1814.

 

So the Red Army is planning to enter Paris? Don't you think that would be wrong?

 

How's that mop up operation in Ukraine coming? Member? Member you said that? Member that thread is hundreds of pages long of people pointing out your idiotic stance on a quick little 20 minute adventure in Ukraine?

No one cares about the French dude, we know they're just cheese eating surrender monkies who whore themselves to the strongest.
Putler ain't that, he can't even keep his own mercenaries in line for ****'s sake. He's like a child.

 

My experience with the French has not been good. This was in France in the late 1960s and Quebec in Canada in the late 1990s. It was difficult to get service at their service stations and at restaurants. They went out of their way to be rude. As best I can tell, they believe they are a superior race and want to make sure Americans know it. While touring Canada, we avoided travelling through Quebec.

 

I'm not surprised at any human action during a war. War makes us animals. It's so sad that it takes only one man to start a war and then the animals start doing the war monger's killing. Mohammed Ali (Cassius Clay) was right to refuse to report for the draft when he said, "I got nothing against them Cong." If only the Russian military had refused to invade Ukraine.

 

Why wrong? France is openly participating in the war against Russia. For example, it supplies arms to Russia's enemy. Russia could very well occupy France. Or destroy it. In self-defense.

 

The cleanup is going great. In addition to the Ukrainian rabble, the mercenary rabble from the EU and the United States is also eliminated in the sweep. As well as the economies of these countries. Everything is going beautifully. Don't worry about the Russians. They are doing fine.
For example, Russia's economy is growing at 5.8%. Or another indicator - Russia is the only country in Europe where food prices are going down.

 

Thanks for an interesting slice of censored history that you're not likely to learn from MSM.
It is also not commonly known that as late as 1947, 4 million German POWs were still doing slave labor in England, France and the former USSR.

Re:

This is old news. German intelligence learned of Stalin's plans to sweep westward through Europe(1) and beyond.
It was because Stalin's army was in offensive positions that there were easily overrun in the beginning.

Finally, Paris wouldn't have existed if it had not been for the courage of German General Dietrich von Choltitz who was ordered by Hitler to destroy Paris but refused to do so. It is telling that Veterans of both sides attended his funeral and he is regarded by the French as the Savior of Paris.



(1) "Exposing Stalin’s Plan to Conquer Europe:…"
https://www.counter-currents.com/201...onquer-europe/

EXCERPT "In Icebreaker, Suvorov details the deployment of Soviet forces in June 1941, describing just how Stalin amassed vast numbers of troops and stores of weapons along the European frontier, not to defend the Soviet homeland but in preparation for a westward attack and decisive battles on enemy territory.

Thus, when German forces struck, the bulk of Red ground and air forces were concentrated along the Soviet western borders facing contiguous European countries, especially the German Reich and Romania, in final readiness for an assault on Europe." CONTINUED

 

Paraphrase your text this way. - If NATO had not expanded eastward... State the root cause.

 

You guys just got ****ed up by a 2nd rate mercenary group you employed ffs. Spare us all the silly posturing.

 

1.
You are treating a passage from a FANTASTIC novel by a traitor who escaped from the USSR as a historical document. All of his novels have nothing to do with real events.
It's just like interpreting scientific writing about space by referring to Lucas's Star Wars.
2.
I don't know about how the German prisoners worked in France and Britain, but for what Germany did to the Soviet people, the USSR had every right to exterminate every single German. Read Plan Ost to see if you can blame the Russians for anything.
The plan "Ost" described item by item how to totally exterminate the Soviet people - it describes both mass and brutal executions of civilians of the USSR, it also describes how to create a famine and specifies how to exterminate the Russians with famine....In general, read it. You will learn a lot of interesting things.
No homicidal maniac invented more subtle methods than the Germans did.

 

Are you talking about the Wagner Group?
Now this group is 100 kilometers away from Kiev.
On the Belarusian-Ukrainian border. The recruitment centers of this group are open in Russia. The head of Wagner flew to Moscow yesterday...
British intelligence said that Wagner would soon strike Kiev from the territory of Belarus.
Under the guise of a funny play, the Russians were able to move a combat unit near the Ukrainian capital.

 

A funny play where he shot down your aircraft and took over various government buildings?
LOL cope harder

 

I think that I mentioned in an earlier Post that all of us who live in any country that was involved in WW 2 have been and continue to be saturated with residual, WW 2 anti German propaganda.
Since the victors control the documents and write their version of history that you and I are exposed to the same old myths and grotesque exaggerations just about every day.
One of my favorite quotes is from George Orwell:

"Who controls the past controls the future; who controls the present controls the past." (1)

About 50 years ago when many more WW 2 Veterans and civilian survivors were around, I lived, studied, worked and drank with German WW 2 Veterans, civilian fire bombing survivors and Veterans of other armies.
Because I served in S.E. Asia (Laos) during the widely unpopular Vietnam War and have a German last name, many of the German Veterans were quite open and candid with me.

Additionally, I spent much of my childhood around American WW 2 Veterans and read a fair amount about the era but I don't by any means consider myself an expert.

Therefore, I think that what Vladimir Rezun (aka Viktor Suvorov) has presented(2) is consistent with what I have read and heard for decades from knowledgable Veterans and related sources including Plan Ost in the original German. I have read many German documents that have been deliberately mistranslated to seem more evil to deceive the reader.
The Wannsee Conference is one that I have seen that is deliberately mistranslated most just as the word "exterminate" is deliberately mistranslated.

I hope you'll remember that the Soviets and the British invaded Iran in August of 1941 and the British went on to exploit Iran's oilfields through the Anglo - Iranian Oil Co. for decades while the Soviets withdrew from Iran about a year after the scheduled date.

My point in raising that particular incident is to show that I do not believe that Russia is the only country that wants to project its influence. I include the US in the long list of countries that at least try to expand their influence beyond its borders.
It almost seems like any country that can influence weaker ones is compelled to do so.

Re:

Your opinion is very different than the very first Russian I ever knew who was an older "White" Russian (vs Red Russian).
She was 18 years old when the Red Russians murdered her whole family and burned her home.

During WW 2, she was captured or a refugee with all the major participants and claimed that the Germans treated her better than anyone, even her fellow Russians.

It's just my opinion that no nationality has a monopoly on either good or evil. In other words, I don't believe that the Germans were any more cruel than anyone else.

Are most Russians still hostile toward the Germans for WW 2?

I'm curious...

Thanks.





(1).https://www.forbes.com/quotes/3552/...the future; who,the present controls the past.


(2) "Exposing Stalin’s Plan to Conquer Europe:…"
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v17/v17n4p30_Michaels.html

EXCERPT "In Icebreaker, Suvorov details the deployment of Soviet forces in June 1941, describing just how Stalin amassed vast numbers of troops and stores of weapons along the European frontier, not to defend the Soviet homeland but in preparation for a westward attack and decisive battles on enemy territory.

Thus, when German forces struck, the bulk of Red ground and air forces were concentrated along the Soviet western borders facing contiguous European countries, especially the German Reich and Romania, in final readiness for an assault on Europe.

In his second book on the origins of the war, “M Day” (for “Mobilization Day”), Suvorov details how, between late 1939 and the summer of 1941, Stalin methodically and systematically built up the best armed, most powerful military force in the world — actually the world’s first superpower — for his planned conquest of Europe. Suvorov explains how Stalin’s drastic conversion of the country’s economy for war actually made war inevitable."CONTINUED

 

Comrade Stalin said it best.

The words of Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin, leader of the USSR, from Order No. 55 of February 23, 1942, by which the People's Commissar of Defense I. Stalin congratulated the military and partisans on the 24th anniversary of the Red Army. The order contains the following words:
"Sometimes they chatter in the foreign press that the Red Army has as its aim to exterminate the German people and to destroy the German state. This, of course, is foolish nonsense and an unintelligent slander of the Red Army. The Red Army does not and cannot have such idiotic goals. The Red Army has as its aim to expel the German invaders from our country and to liberate the Soviet land from the German-Fascist invaders. It is very likely that the war to liberate the Soviet land will lead to the expulsion or destruction of the Hitler clique. We would welcome such an outcome. But it would be ridiculous to identify the Hitler clique with the German people, with the German state. History tells us that Hitlers come and go, but the German people and the German state remain.
The strength of the Red Army lies finally in the fact that it does not and cannot have racial hatred of other peoples, including the German people, that it was brought up in a spirit of equality of all peoples and races, in a spirit of respect for the rights of other peoples. The racial theory of the Germans and the practice of racial hatred led to the fact that all freedom-loving peoples became enemies of Nazi Germany The theory of racial equality in the USSR and the practice of respect for the rights of other peoples led to the fact that all freedom-loving peoples became friends of the Soviet Union.
This is the strength of the Red Army.
This is also the weakness of the German fascist army.
Sometimes in the foreign press they chatter that the Soviet people hate Germans like Germans, that the Red Army destroys German soldiers just like Germans because they hate everything German, that this is why the Red Army does not take German soldiers prisoner. This, of course, is just as silly nonsense and an unintelligent slander of the Red Army. The Red Army is free from feelings of racial hatred It is free from such a derogatory feeling because it has been educated in the spirit of racial equality and respect for the rights of other peoples It should be remembered, moreover, that in our country racial hatred is punishable by law.
Of course, the Red Army has to destroy German fascist invaders because they want to enslave our homeland or when, surrounded by our troops, they refuse to lay down their arms and surrender. The Red Army destroys them, not because of their German origin, but because they want to enslave our homeland. The Red Army, like the army of any other nation, has the right and obligation to destroy the enslavers of their homeland, regardless of their national origin. Recently, in the cities of Kalinin, Klin, Sukhinichi, Andreapol, and Toropets, our troops surrounded the German garrisons standing there, who were asked to surrender and were promised life in this case. The German garrisons refused to lay down their arms and surrender. Understandably, they had to be knocked out by force, and quite a few Germans were slaughtered. War is war. The Red Army takes prisoners of war German soldiers and officers if they surrender, and keeps them alive. The Red Army destroys German soldiers and officers if they refuse to lay down their arms and try to enslave our homeland. Recall the words of the great Russian writer Maxim Gorky: "If the enemy does not surrender - he is destroyed."

And, by the way, it was only thanks to Comrade Stalin and his firm position that Germany survived as a state. Comrade Stalin refused to accept Churchill and Roosevelt's insistence that Germany be divided into 12 regions, which would become part of the surrounding states.

The Western media do not write about this. Isn't it?

And in general...It's better to read real historical documents, but not fantasy novels.

 

I appreciate your posting that excerpt from one of Stalin's speeches but it does nothing to dispel the fact that the Red Army was in offensive positioning in preparation to strike Western Europe on "M-Day" (Mobilization Day).

I find Suvorov's explanation to be a credible one and consistent with other documents I've seen.
Additionally, when I was living in Germany, I worked different jobs while I went to the university.

One job I had about 50 years ago was to work with a German stone mason building a stone wall.
The master stone mason had been a young SS officer on the Eastern Front. It was summertime and hard work so we drank beer while we worked from lunchtime until quitting time. Sometimes we would go to a bar after work and sometime's we would talk about our different dismal military experiences, his were, of course much worse than mine.

We talked more openly about nightmares etc because of the drinking and I remember his claim that the fighting was easier at first because even though the Soviets outnumbered the Germans, they had no defensive positions.

This was told to me about 50 years ago by someone who had no motive to lie about it just as I cannot believe that he, a German member of the Waffen SS, was any more cruel than any other soldier of any other nationality.

When it comes to the WW 2 era, I always keep in the back of my mind that much of what I hear through mainstream Western media is residual propaganda written by the victors with the victor's bias.

I believe that all of us are exposed to propaganda. It's just that some people recognize propaganda for what it is and others accept it because they like the security it provides and makes them feel like one of the "Good Guys"
Therefor, I'm not afraid to admit that Americans like Eisenhower committed horrific crimes and also realize that "D - Day" was just a side show compared to the Eastern Front.
The Eastern Front was even ore brutal because of Stalin's Order # 270 and the Soviet refusal to sign the Geneva Convention.

The Killing didn't stop at the end of the war as 9 - 15 million Germans were killed after the shooting stopped(1)many of them in Soviet work camps and gulags(2) run by murderous sadists like Solomon Morel who escaped to Israel which refused to extradite him to Poland for mass murder.

Finally, you seem to speak fondly of "Comrade Stalin". Do you think that many Russians would like to have someone like Stalin in power again?

Thanks, again



(1). "GERMAN HOLOCAUST GERMAN GENOCIDE: 9-15 Million Germans Killed 1945 – 1953 Post WW2 “The Morgenthau Plan” EISENHOWER’S DEATH CAMPS “A Forgotten Genocide”
http://truedemocracyparty.net/2014/...eisenhowers-death-camps-a-forgotten-genocide/

EXCERPT “ Scanned images of the text of the cover story published in the September 1989 issue of Saturday Night describes Eisenhower’s barbarism. Here is the truth.

Bacque tells the truth about how Eisenhower murdered thousands of German prisoners of war AFTER the surrender. Many of those starving soldiers and piles of dead bodies you have seen in atrocity photos were NOT Jews, they were Germans.

General George Patton (who released all his German prisoners) wrote in 1945 that Eisenhower was using “practically Gestapo methods” in torturing and killing German POWs." CONTINUED


(2). "Solomon Morel – Commander of Concentration Camp Zgoda"
https://polishtruth.com/article/view/98/solomon-morel-commander-of-concentration-camp-zgoda.html

EXCERPT "The Zgoda (or Swietochlowice) camp was opened in February 1945 for enemies of the Soviet Union in the formerly German province of Silesia in Poland. It was set up at the location of a former Auschwitz subcamp, where prisoners had been forced to work for the German war effort.

The inmates were systematically maltreated and tortured by the guards, including by Morel himself. They liked to make pyramids of beaten prisoners up to six layers high, causing suffocation.

At night the guards went to the women’s barracks, chose half a dozen women, took them to their quarters outside the barbed wire, and gang-raped them." CONTINUED

 

I'm not interested in discussing a science fiction writer's opinion on the causes of war.
You'd be better off debating in a sci-fi club. There you can discuss Suvorov's novels in the context of studying war, Lucas's movies like Star Wars in the context of studying astronomy, The Three Musketeers in the context of studying French history, for example.
If you want to talk seriously, talk based on real documents. For example, we could discuss Plan Ost.

 

Vladimir Rezun, aka Viktor Suvorov is a former Soviet military intelligent officer and historian, not a science fiction writer.

He is not the only historian who agrees that Stalin was preparing to march his army Westward on " M - Day" so I honestly don't see why you can't see from the facts that there really was a Soviet offensive planned for June - July 1941.

I'm not afraid to admit that my country, like all large countries, has done many immoral things while trying to expand its sphere of influence.
Why can't you accept the fact that Stalin, also, was committed to restoring Russia's borders to those of the old Russian Tsarist Empire?
What makes it so hard to believe?

It is well known that Stalin wanted to reverse the disastrous effects on Russia by the Treaty of Brest - Litovsk (191 just as Hitler resented the Treaty of Versailles, Stalin was determined to seize the territories lost in 1918 under the Treaty of Brest - Litovsk which to Russia was like the Treaty of Versailles was to Germany.

It's just a simple fact that the former USSR had already seized Finland, Bessarabia, Northern Bukovina. half of Poland and part of Iran(1) before the planned "M Day" (Mobilization Day).

It's also a fact that captured Soviet officers were carrying maps of. Germany and German held territory.

Why would Soviets have maps of Germany and German held territory if their plans were to hold local defensive positions?

Additionally, Stalin openly declared: ""the ultimate victory of socialism... can only be achieved on an international scale"
In other words, he's clearly stating a desire to expand Socialist / Communist influence around the world

Finally, why would a former German soldier who served on the Eastern Front lie about the Soviets having no defenses or defensive positioning (tank traps, minefields, earthworks).

I hope you understand that I am not condemning Russia or suggesting that America behaved any more morally, I'm just trying to be objective in determining what is true and what is propaganda.

I'd also be happy to discuss any subject with you at an appropriate thread.





(1). "Time to Face the Truth About World War II"
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-margolis/time-to-face-the-truth-ab_b_282379.html

EXCERPT "the 1941 joint Soviet-British invasion of Iran to grab its oil, an act every bit as illegal and reprehensible as the Soviet-German joint invasion of Poland.

But it is little understood that Stalin was also bent on historic and geographic rectification. He sought to erase the effects of the 1918 Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, imposed on defeated, revolution-torn Russia by the German-led Central Powers." CONTINUED


(2) "Soviet offensive plans controversy"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_offensive_plans_controversy

 

also see: Rape during the liberation of France
U.S. soldiers committed an estimated 4,500 rapes in France between June 1944 and the end of the war in May 1945.
One French resident recalled that "With the Germans, the men had to camouflage themselves--but with the Americans, we had to hide the women."
Part of the explanation was that Americans viewed French women as "easy", sexually loose, and sluts. Which did have some partial truth, but in reality that was mainly in Paris and was not true of all French women.

I think a part of the explanation may be there is an element of sadism in the population, wanting to pick on the weak. The French had reasons to blame the Americans. They also had reasons to blame the Germans, but the Germans held the power, so the French couldn't take their frustrations out on them.
Another factor may have been that there were two factions of French, one that hated the Germans and the other than embraced the occupation. So only one of those factions of the population dared to openly express their hate in front of the German occupation. We can also remember there was plenty of German propaganda in occupied France as well, which may have convinced a part of the population.

 

Seems to me like ultimately the joke was on the Germans as they got their ass thoroughly whooped.

 

I hope you'll excuse me if I address one of your last thoughts first.

Re

I'm sure you're aware that both sides used propaganda and much of what remains of the dominant Western WW 2 narrative is mostly residual Allied propaganda.

One of the reasons that Allied propaganda was more prolific than Axis propaganda was Hollywood's collection of creative movie moguls and their staged (1) Holo-Horror movies like "The Death Mills" that featured the infamous fake human skin lampshades, fake human fat soap, shrunken heads and even a "vaporizer"(2)

Rarely does a day pass when we are not exposed to some reference to WW 2 and / or the Holocaust that is mostly stock Allied propaganda.

It is just my opinion that in order to look at history objectively, you have to remember the following observation made by George Orwell:

"Who controls the past controls the future; who controls the present controls the past." (3)

Thanks,




(1). “The Director of the Holocau$t - Khazar Expatriate Billy Wilder”
https://archive.org/details/TheDirectorOfTheHolocaut-KhazarExpatriateBillyWilder

EXCERPT “Almost all the films you've ever seen of the Holocaust were staged. Using Allied propaganda as a rough script, directors from Hollywood were shipped to Germany and Poland to direct propaganda films for post-war use. One of the most notable of these was Billy Wilder, director of meny very well known films, such as "Some Like It Hot" with Marilyn Monroe."CONTINUED


(2). "Auschwitz: Myths and Facts"
http://www.ihr.org/leaflets/auschwitz.shtml

EXCERPT "At the Nuremberg Tribunal, chief US prosecutor Robert Jackson charged that the Germans had used a "newly invented" device to instantaneously "vaporize" 20,000 Jews near Auschwitz "in such a way that there was no trace left of them." [8] No reputable historian now accepts either of these fanciful tales."CONTINUED


(3).https://www.forbes.com/quotes/3552/...the future; who,the present controls the past.

 

I've traveled extensively in France since the early 90's and, for the most part, I've found them to be a very pleasant people. Your post reminds of the claim that all American tourists are loud and boorish. Broad brush claims based on nescience.