The things that draw me to religion

First, my mind cannot comprehend a cosmos with no primordial cause. I know that it leads to the argument, "If there IS a primordial cause, by whatever name, then what caused the primordial cause, smarty?"

It's a reasonable rejoinder, and the answer is, I don't know. But if I have to pick the first or the second -- or is there a third? -- I have to go with the first.

Second, the people whom I have seen and encountered in life who have made me glad to be alive, whom I enjoy being around, who seem the most well adjusted, and who do the most for their fellow man, with zero expectation of reward or recognition, are Christians. That's just my personal experience. I am sure I would encounter as many selfless Buddhists or Muslims if I adhered to those faiths and lived in those communities. I am also sure that there are atheists who do more for the poor and disadvantaged than I do. And yes, there are evil people who claim to be Christian. I concede that point, and it seriously bothers me. I can only say that few if any are obeying biblical commands.

There's a third thing that really is just ancillary to the second: atheists in my experience are bitter, sour, smug, proud, sarcastic, and unpleasant to be around. They are relentlessly negative. Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins are prime examples. While they make money mocking the religious, some nun in Guatemala, Calcutta, or Manila, inspired by the holy book they denigrate, is running an orphanage and changing bandages for some leper in a free clinic. For nothing. Day in and day out. Why do they do this? At the bottom of this selflessness is a belief in God.

Does any of this prove that God exists? No, I confess it does not. Maybe atheists are just bad salesmen. But these thoughts invade every time I start to think that religion is based on mendacity or delusion.

 

I think the answer of "I don't know" is way better than that.

For one thing, it is the truth.

 

Why does a person need religion to do the right thing?

And, there is no way to prove or disprove how or why we came to be so what's the point in arguing about it and fighting wars for eternity on which made up Sky Daddy story is the *real* one?

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If religion adds value to your life, then you should run with that whether you are dancing naked under the oak trees, rubbing the fat guy's belly, or singing in the choir. If it takes away from the quality of your life, then you should maybe consider ditching it.

 

"First, my mind cannot comprehend a cosmos with no primordial cause."

can one comprehend a God with no primordial cause?

 

There are hints that reality may not actually operate only according to the normal intuitive understanding of "cause" and "effect".

(rather it can simply be said that the future and past are correlated together)

There still is the question of the cause of existence, but the question of cause as you specifically understand it is actually irrelevant.

The question of "When did the universe begin?" is symmetrically the same sort of question as "When will the universe end?" and "Where in space does the universe end?"

If the universe is truly infinite (in both time and space) then it does not need a beginning.

 

Okay. This was what I meant by a third option. And some days it feels like the best option, because the other two make no sense at all.

The thing is, though, that everything that moves has a mover. I don't understand how everything, except the world, can have a beginning. There should be other things that pop into existence out of thin air.

 

I agree with you on some points. Instead of using the word religion though, I would use spirituality. that separates those as you say who call themselves Christians but act in evil ways, and includes, as you say, those Buddhists and Muslims and other faiths. I think it is the recognition that we are more than our body and mind, that we are spiritual beings having a human experience that allows us to adjust well and live our best lives, for ourselves and others.

The problem I have with organized religion is that it is too often used as a tool of hate or a means to secure power on earth. A religious leader may decide that some category of person should be persecuted, or that their congregation should support some cause or other that may not be very religious in nature, etc. You get the point. Religion is not necessarily bad, but when it loses its focus on spirituality, and begins to focus on the the worldly, things can go terribly wrong.

 

By the same logic you are using if god exists then who created god and where did god hang up his jacket when nothing existed until he created it. You need to just stop trying to apply logic to faith. You either find/have it, or you do not. It isn't like it really matters in the grand scheme of things to know something that has for all of human existence been unknowable.

 

I am not sure why atheism is so repulsive to me, but it is.

I am not referring to agnosticism or even the atheism of the indifferent non-believer: "I'm not anti God, just no God. What did I do with the remote?"

I teeter on the edge of agnosticism myself when I despair at the dreary repetition of war, cruelty, famine, abuse, and so on.

It may just be that people like Richard Dawkins are so disrespectful of a great tradition that has inspired so much goodness
and artistic beauty that they just drive me the other way, in the same way that I disagree with certain policy positions because the promotion is so belligerent. Or the way people instinctively think Trump is wrong or racist because he is repulsive to them.

I actually think most prominent atheists are just trolls happy to make money and Daily Beast headlines like "Hitchens DESTROYS bishop!!"

They have no more insight than the rest of us and have contributed nothing to society that I consider beneficial.

 

That strikes me as flippant. No offense.

 

Atheism says that if something isn't tangible, then it isn't real. Yet every day, all day, you exercise your intangible conscience to see right from wrong, and the intangible power of love, and esteem it a surety in spite of the mechanisms of scientific proof which cannot even fathom the matter. But you know what you know nevertheless, that it is true.

Your intangible higher nature runs concurrently along the course of this tangible life. But then you say that the work of God cannot run concurrently along the course, because it cannot be seen or measured, or any way verified. So by your own reasoning, by saying that Christianity is a fantasy, everyone then lives in fantasy, one being common, while the other more rare.

God has stirred me from our common fantasy to one in him. We were born. I am reborn. Where is the contradiction in this progression? One translation of the word "Israel" is, "Let God prevail." God is as real as our higher natures. And his presence neither more nor less than what we allow. One cannot in obstinance, shun him and then declare him nonexistent. Or close our eyes and say there is nothing to be seen. But your life and will are your own. In the end, we are all accountable to our creator for our own lives and choices. I just would that you could suspend disbelief for a brief moment and consider that God loves you.

 

Great post! I used to think that electricity wasn't real because I couldn't see it. Then I stuck a butter knife in an electrical socket.

Ask me if I believe in electricity now!

I don't know that God loves me or anyone else, but that's a personal problem. It is part of my faith that he does, but ... I can't reconcile this principle with child abuse. I just can't.

 

Belief in deity is one thing. Belief in a particular deity with particular likes and dislikes and particular commands is another. I can excuse people for God belief. I find it much harder excusing them for promoting religions that are hateful or destructive. I count most forms of Christianity and Islam in the latter category.

 

Do you mean that if God loves us, why does he allow awful things to happen to us?

 

Something like that, yes. Me, I deserve misfortune. Babies and toddlers? No way.

 

Then in addition to the standard safety warnings we should require that all cribs be inscribed with that verse from Leviticus about God making people eat their sons and daughters. That'll teach the kids what their place in the food chain is. If not that, they should at least have the verse from Psalms about dashing babies against the rocks.

 

Is Christianity hateful and destructive, or is it that some people do hateful and destructive things in the name of Christianity. The author of Christianity said that the two greatest commandments are to love God with all your heart, soul, and mind; and to love your neighbor as yourself.

 

The latter is virtuous, yes. The former is a call for authoritarianism and obedience to power. I don't see that as virtuous. And there is a lot more in Christianity than those two commandments. Also, I find the very concept of a "commandment" to be authoritarian.

 

Were we not rebellious and wayward, we'd not require a command. But I'd prefer the certainty of command from a Father who loves me and is concerned for the eternal welfare of my soul, over a casual suggestion from a placeholder who cares little to none at all. If you don't care about your Father, then you don't care about yourself. And if you don't care about yourself, you won't care substantially about your neighbor either, imo.

 

Your imagined God is not my father. Those who claim to speak for your imagined God are not owed my obedience. And even if your God is real and created the universe, that in itself does not compel me to obey him rather than decide for myself what is the right thing for me to do.

 

Folks this is the kind of unhelpful atheist sarcasm mentioned in the OP.

 

Angry.

No one here is trying to convert you.

 

They don't. I already explained what draws me to religion and it assuredly isn't that.

 

Why do you interpret what I wrote there as angry? There is no anger necessary in rejecting grabs for authority and control. There is no anger required to note that I see your imagined God as imaginary, and there is no anger in my noting that even if it was real, I would still see no reason to see it as an authority over anyone or anything just because it has extreme power.